2 weeks holidays intitlement in the US versus 5 weeks in Europe?

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Question:

It’s one thing that intrigued me years ago : the US gave their average worker 2 weeks paid-leave, when we already had 3 weeks paid-leave (15 days) in Europe. Over the years we increased out holiday entitlement to 4 weeks (20days) and now most people get 5 weeks leave per year (25 days) + a handful of Public holidays. A relative of mine in France, tells me that the French Government having decided on a reduction of the working week to 35 hours (it is now Law), each Company has to decide – in consultation with their employees – on how this reduction in working hours is to be implemented… in his case the Staff were offered the choice between : 1>> no reduction in the daily/weekly working hours, BUT an extra 22 days holidays. That’s another 4 weeks to be added to the previous 5! or a day off every 2 weeks. 2>> a reduction in their working day plus an extra 11 days holidays. This was the package chosen by his Firm, as it will enable the Staff to take these 11 days off whenever they need them. Unless one of our many contributors from the US puts me right… does the Average Joe only get 2 weeks holidays per year ? paul e/uk

Response:

Many folks get far less–if they are in a job with few (or no) benefits, they’ll be lucky to get 5 days vacation in a year! Also, many people who supposedly have 2 or 3 weeks vacation time, cannot take all of it, and most assuredly cannot take all of it at once–taking that much time off all at once is frowned upon by the supervisors, and can result in those people being first considered when layoffs/firings occur! So, there are also many people who have lots of vacation time on the books, but cannot ever use it! One view from the USA– Jean in VA

Response:

> It’s one thing that intrigued me years ago : the US gave their average > worker > 2 weeks paid-leave, when we already had 3 weeks paid-leave (15 days) in > Europe.

I get as much sick and personal as I damn well want. Rich

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > It’s one thing that intrigued me years ago : the US gave their average > worker > 2 weeks paid-leave, when we already had 3 weeks paid-leave (15 days) in > Europe. > Over the years we increased out holiday entitlement to 4 weeks (20days) and > now most people get 5 weeks leave per year (25 days) + a handful of Public > holidays. > A relative of mine in France, tells me that the French Government having > decided on a reduction of the working week to 35 hours (it is now Law), each > Company has to decide – in consultation with their employees – on how > this reduction in working hours is to be implemented… > in his case the Staff were offered the choice between : > 1>> no reduction in the daily/weekly working hours, BUT an extra 22 days > holidays. That’s another 4 weeks to be added to the previous 5! or a day off > every 2 weeks. > 2>> a reduction in their working day plus an extra 11 days holidays. > This was the package chosen by his Firm, as it will enable the > Staff to take these 11 days off whenever they need them. > Unless one of our many contributors from the US puts me right… > does the Average Joe only get 2 weeks holidays per year ?

At many, if not most US companies the standard is 5 days for each 6 months you put in (2 weeks per year) the first 1-5 years, then 3 weeks per year 5-10 years, then 4 weeks after that. If you don’t take all of your vacation time during that year, you lose it. Until very recently I was a 10+ year employee of a firm and was too busy to take 4 weeks off. So now I’ll be back to 2 weeks when I find another opportunity, assuming I want to work for someone else again. Personally, I think 3 weeks would be ideal. That would leave 2 weeks for a lengthy vacation, then 5 "off days" to do whatever. I’d rather work for myself, though. I also don’t think the US government should butt in and force companies to give more vacation time. If the French feel an additional full month off is the solution to their chronic unemployment, that’s their business. — Known to annoy: http://www.watchingyou.com

Response:

>Unless one of our many contributors from the US puts me right… >does the Average Joe only get 2 weeks holidays per year ?

There is no set system used nation-wide. Every organization has different rules. At most companies, as a new employee, you’d get 10-12 holidays per year and every month you earn hours that would work out to be about 2 weeks vacation time per year. Depending on the company, your vacation time accrual rate grows, usually at 3, 5 and 10 year anniversaries. Where I work now is completely different in that we have to operate 24/7/365. So we get 33 "earned time" days to start. This is your sick, holiday, and vacation time. Use as you like. We accrue more time at 3, 5 and 10 year anniversaries. And some places, like my old employer, award an additional full month sabbatical for employees on their 10th anniversary. However I know that the US is on average below Europe in the amount of vacation time. I blame the workers themselves. Most Americans will have no problem negotiaing hard for a higher salary, but few that I know of have bargained for more vacation time. Personally, the amount of vacation time is *very* important to me. The system where I work now is great b/c I can work minor holidays, and I’m rarely sick, so for the last three years I’ve been able to take two 1 week and one 2 week holiday per year. Now if I could only afford to pay for them.

Response:

Often, it’s only *one* week, in the case of new hires…and *none* for part – timers…. The lack of legislated holiday time here in the States is just another reason why I do not consider the US to be in the first tier of developed nations (lack of a national health insurance scheme, the death penalty, the existence of a vast poverty class, and high crime rates are other reasons why I consider my country not quite up to international "snuff". Oh, and the fact that our President was not legally elected, but appointed . There has been a big hue and cry here in some quarters about that fact that Bush is taking the whole month of August as a holiday. Good for him, I say (though I loathe him) — I wish that *every* worker in the USA got the month of August off.! I read a report recently that stated that we work *more* hours in the USA than even workers in Japan…I’m not a bit surprised. — Best Greg gregorymorrowatmsndotcom

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->It’s one thing that intrigued me years ago : the US gave their average >worker >2 weeks paid-leave, when we already had 3 weeks paid-leave (15 days) in >Europe. >Over the years we increased out holiday entitlement to 4 weeks (20days) and >now most people get 5 weeks leave per year (25 days) + a handful of Public >holidays. >A relative of mine in France, tells me that the French Government having >decided on a reduction of the working week to 35 hours (it is now Law), each >Company has to decide – in consultation with their employees – on how >this reduction in working hours is to be implemented… > in his case the Staff were offered the choice between : >1>> no reduction in the daily/weekly working hours, BUT an extra 22 days >holidays. That’s another 4 weeks to be added to the previous 5! or a day off >every 2 weeks. >2>> a reduction in their working day plus an extra 11 days holidays. >This was the package chosen by his Firm, as it will enable the >Staff to take these 11 days off whenever they need them. >Unless one of our many contributors from the US puts me right… >does the Average Joe only get 2 weeks holidays per year ? >Often, it’s only *one* week, in the case of new hires…and *none* for part – >timers…. >The lack of legislated holiday time here in the States is just another reason >why I do not consider the US to be in the first tier of developed nations (lack >of a national health insurance scheme, the death penalty, the existence of a >vast poverty class, and high crime rates are other reasons why I consider my >country not quite up to international "snuff". Oh, and the fact that our >President was not legally elected, but appointed . >There has been a big hue and cry here in some quarters about that fact that Bush >is taking the whole month of August as a holiday. Good for him, I say (though I >loathe him) — I wish that *every* worker in the USA got the month of August >off.! >I read a report recently that stated that we work *more* hours in the USA than >even workers in Japan…I’m not a bit surprised. >– >Best >Greg >gregorymorrowatmsndotcom

What is the reasoning behind the small holiday entitlement in the US? The country is rich enough to afford a lot better, and we presumably don’t get a second chance at life so why is it given such low priority? In other places 4 or 5 weeks of free time to spend with one’s family or friends or persuing other interests is considered a neccessity for a healthy society. –==++AJC++==–

Response:

It depends entirely on your company and/or your position; in some cases it can be negotiated and in others it cannot. At the time my husband retired, he had six weeks paid vacation per year, plus several public holidays; we usually chose to take one three-week chunk and to take the rest as four-day weekends, but in many companies this choice is not available. And it must be noted that this was at the *end* of his working career; at the beginning he got only two weeks. He worked at his last job for 8 years, and negotiated the vacation time as well as the salary at the time he was hired.

Response:

>What is the reasoning behind the small holiday entitlement in the >US? The country is rich enough to afford a lot better, and we >presumably don’t get a second chance at life so why is it given >such low priority? In other places 4 or 5 weeks of free time to >spend with one’s family or friends or persuing other interests is >considered a neccessity for a healthy society.

Productivity. Holiday time is not legislated, but is a matter of individual employer policy, and employers like higher productivity per employee. Obviously, no time off could be counter productive, but I don’t see any evidence that the prodigious amounts of time taken off in many European countries leads to increased productivity; evidence seems to be to the contrary. Check out the driveways in a typical a American community and count the boats and RVs (caravans); Americans still find plenty of time to pursue other interests and relaxations. — * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * ******* My typos are intentional copyright traps ******

Response:

>What is the reasoning behind the small holiday entitlement in the US? >The country is rich enough to afford a lot better, and we presumably

Well, some would argue that the country is rich becuase it does not have to pay for "a lot better"

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>It’s one thing that intrigued me years ago : the US gave their average >>worker >>2 weeks paid-leave, when we already had 3 weeks paid-leave (15 days) in >>Europe. >>Over the years we increased out holiday entitlement to 4 weeks (20days) and >>now most people get 5 weeks leave per year (25 days) + a handful of Public >>holidays. >>A relative of mine in France, tells me that the French Government having >>decided on a reduction of the working week to 35 hours (it is now Law), each >>Company has to decide – in consultation with their employees – on how >>this reduction in working hours is to be implemented… >> in his case the Staff were offered the choice between : >>1>> no reduction in the daily/weekly working hours, BUT an extra 22 days >>holidays. That’s another 4 weeks to be added to the previous 5! or a day off >>every 2 weeks. >>2>> a reduction in their working day plus an extra 11 days holidays. >>This was the package chosen by his Firm, as it will enable the >>Staff to take these 11 days off whenever they need them. >>Unless one of our many contributors from the US puts me right… >>does the Average Joe only get 2 weeks holidays per year ? >Often, it’s only *one* week, in the case of new hires…and *none* for part – >timers…. >The lack of legislated holiday time here in the States is just another reason >why I do not consider the US to be in the first tier of developed nations (lack >of a national health insurance scheme, the death penalty, the existence of a >vast poverty class, and high crime rates are other reasons why I consider my >country not quite up to international "snuff". Oh, and the fact that our >President was not legally elected, but appointed . >There has been a big hue and cry here in some quarters about that fact that Bush >is taking the whole month of August as a holiday. Good for him, I say (though I >loathe him) — I wish that *every* worker in the USA got the month of August >off.! >I read a report recently that stated that we work *more* hours in the USA than >even workers in Japan…I’m not a bit surprised. >– >Best >Greg >gregorymorrowatmsndotcom >What is the reasoning behind the small holiday entitlement in the US? >The country is rich enough to afford a lot better, and we presumably >don’t get a second chance at life so why is it given such low >priority? In other places 4 or 5 weeks of free time to spend with >one’s family or friends or persuing other interests is considered a >neccessity for a healthy society. >–==++AJC++==–

The US has always been very backward when it comes to progressive social legislation (frex child labor legislation was only enacted in 1938, etc.). Sure, we could afford legislation for proper health care, holiday time, a "Marshall Plan" for poor inner city area, etc., but the US is *very* conservative — all of these things are still derided as "socialism"…. There is also the underlying notion that if you not spending long hours on your job, that you are somehow lazy, and thus not deserving of the "riches" that are possible to attain in US society…. As regards your country specifically, 10 or so years on the CBS TV newsprogram 60 MINUTES there was a report on the social security system in the Netherlands; they sent reporters over to your country to ferret out "slackers" who were making money off the Dutch social welfare system. One example they used was the programme that the Dutch govt. uses to subsidise artists: "Look at these people! These "artists" are paid by the govt. to produce dreck that is then mostly stored in warehouses or only used in govt. offices! Scandalous!"…they also criticised Dutch disability pensions, and the like. Of course they did not add that all this "wasteful" spending by the Dutch authorities was possible because the Netherlands has one of the most successful economies in the world (look at the top 100 or so top companies in the world — there are a very large number of Dutch companies)…what would be the alternative — having all these people begging on the streets, committing property crimes, etc.? If anyone has practiced the capitalist work ethic for centuries, it has surely been the Dutch! BTW, I just read a report in the CHICAGO TRIBUNE that the US ranks _37th_ in the quality of it’s health care — France is #1, and IIRC Holland is in the top five…. Sorry for the rant, but these are things that REALLY bug me about my country…we can do a LOT better. — Best Greg gregorymorrowatmsndotcom

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->What is the reasoning behind the small holiday entitlement in the >US? The country is rich enough to afford a lot better, and we >presumably don’t get a second chance at life so why is it given >such low priority? In other places 4 or 5 weeks of free time to >spend with one’s family or friends or persuing other interests is >considered a neccessity for a healthy society. >Productivity. Holiday time is not legislated, but is a matter of >individual employer policy, and employers like higher productivity >per employee. Obviously, no time off could be counter productive, >but I don’t see any evidence that the prodigious amounts of time >taken off in many European countries leads to increased >productivity; evidence seems to be to the contrary.

Productivity isn’t the issue here. Quality of life *is* the issue — and I think that the more prosperous EU nations, Australia, New Zealand, and Canada have a better quality of life, in many ways, than we in the US do. >Check out the driveways in a typical a American community and count >the boats and RVs (caravans); Americans still find plenty of time >to pursue other interests and relaxations.

Sure — but what is the cost in stress and diminished time that is spent with loved ones, on other interests, etc.? I’ve yet to meet many Europeans that would exchange their lives to live in the US — the exceptions have been some people that came over here to make some money in the financial industry, university students, married US spouses, etc. — Best Greg gregorymorrowatmsndotcom

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>>What is the reasoning behind the small holiday entitlement in the US? >The country is rich enough to afford a lot better, and we presumably >Well, some would argue that the country is rich becuase it does not >have to pay for "a lot better"

*Some* people in this country are rich because they deliberately don’t want to pay for a *lot better* — Best Greg gregorymorrowatmsndotcom

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>Unless one of our many contributors from the US puts me right… >does the Average Joe only get 2 weeks holidays per year ?

I’m from the US and have never had two weeks in my entire career (20+yrs). I currently have 5 weeks. I have had a job with up to 6 weeks (plus sick time & 8 or so national holidays). It is what I negotiate first when I accept a job. A US employer may start at 2 weeks….but usually is willing to talk…unless the job can be filled easily….or the company is small and offers other perks. IMHO, most people forgo a vacation conversation in place of more $$….its all about priorities. I will note though a worrying trend in the US towards PTO (paid time off) where they include sick time in with vacation…..all fine and dandy until you get really sick. 35 hrs weeks…..25 days off….and holidays….all mandated across the board…..how do small employers even survive?

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>What is the reasoning behind the small holiday entitlement in the >>US? The country is rich enough to afford a lot better, and we >>presumably don’t get a second chance at life so why is it given >>such low priority? In other places 4 or 5 weeks of free time to >>spend with one’s family or friends or persuing other interests is >>considered a neccessity for a healthy society. >Productivity. Holiday time is not legislated, but is a matter of >individual employer policy, and employers like higher productivity >per employee. Obviously, no time off could be counter productive, >but I don’t see any evidence that the prodigious amounts of time >taken off in many European countries leads to increased >productivity; evidence seems to be to the contrary. >Productivity isn’t the issue here. Quality of life *is* the issue >– and I think that the more prosperous EU nations, Australia, New >Zealand, and Canada have a better quality of life, in many ways, >than we in the US do.

You are certainly entitled to believe that. You are not entitled to have everyone agree with you. I’ve lived in Canada; I didn’t notice what I considered a better quality of life. But then, "quality of life" isn’t exactly an objective criterion. >Check out the driveways in a typical a American community and >count the boats and RVs (caravans); Americans still find plenty >of time to pursue other interests and relaxations. >Sure — but what is the cost in stress and diminished time that is >spent with loved ones, on other interests, etc.?

I give up. What is the cost? Do you have figures or anything? >I’ve yet to meet many Europeans that would exchange their lives to >live in the US — the exceptions have been some people that came >over here to make some money in the financial industry, university >students, married US spouses, etc.

Interesting, but irrelevant. Migrants don’t generally move in pursuit of some vague "quality of life"; their reasons tend to be more down to earth, like escaping persecution or poverty. — * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * ******* My typos are intentional copyright traps ******

Response:

> >Productivity isn’t the issue here. Quality of life *is* the issue >– and I think that the more prosperous EU nations, Australia, New >Zealand, and Canada have a better quality of life, in many ways, >than we in the US do. > You are certainly entitled to believe that. You are not entitled to > have everyone agree with you. I’ve lived in Canada; I didn’t notice > what I considered a better quality of life. But then, "quality of > life" isn’t exactly an objective criterion.

I have lived in both countries also (and, in comparison with most, being a citizen of neither, I am probably in a good position to be reasonably unemotional obout this). It’s not necessarily a straightforward issue. If you are on the poor side, you’ll definitely have a better quality of life in Canada. Then there are things that no money can buy. It’s pretty safe to let kids play on the street or in the neighborhood here, which is not so obvious in the US. I am just back from a (driving) trip to Seattle. Crossing the border, you definitely see the difference: Canada is cleaner and prettier, while after crossing into the US you get the feeling you just entered a bit of a junkyard and everything around looks more run down. OTOH, if you have a half-decent job, and as long as you don’t have kids at university, you’ll definitely end up with much more extra cash left to spend in the US after covering immediate necessities… Whenever I go to the US from Canada, I always feel kind of having gone halfway back to Brazil (where I also lived for close to ten years).

Response:

<snip> – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Often, it’s only *one* week, in the case of new hires…and *none* for part – >timers…. >The lack of legislated holiday time here in the States is just another reason >why I do not consider the US to be in the first tier of developed nations (lack >of a national health insurance scheme, the death penalty, the existence of a >vast poverty class, and high crime rates are other reasons why I consider my >country not quite up to international "snuff". Oh, and the fact that our >President was not legally elected, but appointed . >There has been a big hue and cry here in some quarters about that fact that Bush >is taking the whole month of August as a holiday. Good for him, I say (though I >loathe him) — I wish that *every* worker in the USA got the month of August >off.! >I read a report recently that stated that we work *more* hours in the USA than >even workers in Japan…I’m not a bit surprised.

It should be noted that the vast majority of domestic workers (99.9%?) in the US are paid totally ‘off the books’ and get NO paid vacation. On the contrary, they are usually simply told not to come to work while the employers are on vacation — and of course they don’t get paid for those weeks. (They also get no Social Security or other pension benefit, no health care, no nothing, tho many do get welfare payments and/or food stamps since there’s no record of their employment.) Great system we’ve got here…

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<snip> >What is the reasoning behind the small holiday entitlement in the US? >The country is rich enough to afford a lot better, and we presumably >don’t get a second chance at life so why is it given such low >priority? In other places 4 or 5 weeks of free time to spend with >one’s family or friends or persuing other interests is considered a >neccessity for a healthy society.

LOL! And why would you think US corporations (who make their own rules directly and the national ones indirectly) would care about ‘a healthy society’??? Even with the paltry benefits they give now, they tend to be moving their factories to places like China and Mexico so they can give even fewer benefits and even lower salaries. Do you now see why all these American cretins keep calling Europe ’socialist’??? They’ve been brain-washed very very well.

Response:

<snip> >Check out the driveways in a typical a American community and count >the boats and RVs (caravans); Americans still find plenty of time >to pursue other interests and relaxations. >Sure — but what is the cost in stress and diminished time that is spent with >loved ones, on other interests, etc.?

Besides, a boat IN THE DRIVEWAY does not provide evidence of leisure time!

Response:

>Over the years we increased out holiday entitlement to 4 weeks (20days) and >now most people get 5 weeks leave per year (25 days) + a handful of Public >holidays.

Wow… I don’t even get 4 weeks until I’ve been here nine years (which isn’t for over a year yet). But we get nine holidays, three of which are floaters (two for Birthday, and one for Date of Hire/Work Anniversary). >Unless one of our many contributors from the US puts me right… >does the Average Joe only get 2 weeks holidays per year ?

It depends on the job. As a programmer who has mainly worked for large corporations, I’ve found that two weeks is a typical starting place for white collar workers, and that people tend to gain an additional week every 3-5 years or so beyond that. It varies, though. — Written online using slrn 0.9.5.4! The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then.

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>Great system we’ve got here…

That may be the problem — it is not "a system" at all, but a huge set of individually set policies. — Written online using slrn 0.9.5.4! The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then.

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Our normal leave situation here in Australia is 4 weeks paid annual leave (20 days), 8 sick days and around 9 public holidays. Michelle – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Over the years we increased out holiday entitlement to 4 weeks (20days) and >now most people get 5 weeks leave per year (25 days) + a handful of Public >holidays. > Wow… I don’t even get 4 weeks until I’ve been here nine years (which > isn’t for over a year yet). But we get nine holidays, three of which are > floaters (two for Birthday, and one for Date of Hire/Work Anniversary). >Unless one of our many contributors from the US puts me right… >does the Average Joe only get 2 weeks holidays per year ? > It depends on the job. > As a programmer who has mainly worked for large corporations, I’ve found > that two weeks is a typical starting place for white collar workers, and > that people tend to gain an additional week every 3-5 years or so beyond > that. It varies, though. > — > Written online using slrn 0.9.5.4! > The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then.

Response:

>I’ve yet to meet many Europeans that would exchange their lives to live in the >US — the exceptions have been some people that came over here to make some >money in the financial industry, university students, married US spouses, etc.

Since you are offering nothing more than anecdotal evidence: I am a acquainted with a large number of Germans who have moved to the States. Attorneys, legal secretary (new US citizen as of last week), dentist (planning to – recently passed the California dental exam), movie industry tech, bookkeeper, and a couple of restaurant owners, among others. I know exactly one US citizen that moved to Europe (Sweden, to marry a Swede). After 17 years in Sweden, they are arranging for the older of their high school aged daughters to attend her last year of school in the US, and then to enroll in college here. The younger one is considering a similar plan. If you have some numbers (I have seen a figure of 675,000 German ex-pats currently in the US) to support your assertion that few Europeans "exchange their lives to live in the US", by all means post away. But my own observation is that Europeans are probably better judges of opportunity than most of us Yanks, and that it isn’t the opportunity to take a lot of vacation. Gordon

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> >Unless one of our many contributors from the US puts me right… >does the Average Joe only get 2 weeks holidays per year ? > Often, it’s only *one* week, in the case of new hires…and *none* for part – > timers….

I’ve been working this summer as a ‘full-time seasonal’ employee. As such, I’m allotted no days off, and the two holidays that have come up (Memorial Day and Independence Day), were unpaid for me. Matthew

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