Visit China

Question:

>Ron and I have been on this search for the ideal cat litter ever since we >brought Kai home. . .

When it comes to cat litter, its a personal choice (the cat’s, not yours). Just like some people will never use a porta-potty, cats go where they feel comfortable, without strange smelling or feeling stuff under foot. I’ve never used the newer "pine" stuff; me AND the cats are happy using standard clumping litter like Tidy Scoop. But years ago, before clumpable litter there was a product on the market that consisted of alfalfa. Biodegradable and natural, it looked like (and made pretty much like) the pellets feed to rabbits. Well, my cat must have been part rabbit; instead of using it as litter, he would eat it. Marc

Response:

Ron and I have been on this search for the ideal cat litter ever since we brought Kai home.  We want a clumping, dust-free, flushable litter that does an amazing job of absorbing odors.  We bought a litterbox with a cover that has a little charcoal filter in it.  We stuck a little piece of carpeting in front of the box, to catch any stray bits of litter that may have stuck to Kai’s paws as he jumps out of the box.  But the first box of litter that we bought just about choked us with dust. So we tried a non-flushable kind.  Still mighty dusty, and it didn’t stop the odor at all.  And it wasn’t nearly as convenient as the flushable stuff. Then we tried the kind that is made from pine trees or something.  I don’t remember the name of it right now, but it looks like little pellets and is supposed to turn into mulch eventually.   Heehee.  Poor Kai.  He didn’t know what to make of it, but he sure didn’t like it!  We poured the old brand on top, according to the directions on the bag, but he still seemed to know that there was something funny in his litterbox.  He isn’t the world’s greatest at burying his litter to begin with (hence the problems that we have with odor), and he got even worse with the pine stuff.  Didn’t want to touch it!  And Ron, who is in charge of the box, says that Kai was "holding it" rather than risk using the new stuff.  Poor little kitty.  When we changed back to an ordinary brand of litter yesterday afternoon, Kai used the box two or three times in 45 minutes.  He looked much relieved afterward.  :)   That’s the end of our experimentation with unusual sorts of litter.  I guess that we’ll have to deal with the dust and the smell; at least we can clean up the flushable kind as often as we think necessary without having to run up and down four flights of stairs…  I wish that he had paid closer attention when his mother was teaching him how to bury, though… I’ve read on these groups that some people really like the pine stuff; that their cats use it and that it really is effective in fighting odor problems.  Guess it goes to show that YMMV; Kai is laid back, but don’t mess with his toilet! Janet

Response:

Janet, there is a natural litter, made from corn or wheat. The consistency is like sand. It is flushable, clumps, no odor, no dust. I use the wheat based one called SwheatScoop. My cat likes it and I like it too.                                       Maria

Response:

>I’ve read on these groups that some people really like the pine stuff; >that their cats use it and that it really is effective in fighting odor >problems.  Guess it goes to show that YMMV; Kai is laid back, but don’t >mess with his toilet!

When I brought my eight month old male kitten home I bought some of the pine stuff.  He didn’t use the box for over 24 hours and got bloated and threw up. I went to the grocery and bought a container of Tidy Cat scoop (not too much dust) and he used his box within an hour of me putting that in.  After a few hours had passed that box looked like a dog had used it there was so much in it.  The poor kitty had been holding it rather than use the pine stuff.   I realize it is organic and all of that type of thing but if it caused the cat to put his elimination (both urinary and fecal) on hold it can cause far more serious problems than clay litter ever could.

Response:

Janet– Nature’s Miracle, which is great as a liquid clean up AFTER the mistake, also comes in a powder. You can sprinkle some in with the litter and Kai will never notice the difference. Less expensive but also worth a try is plain old Arm & Hammer baking soda. Put some in the bottom of the box before you dump in the litter, and then pour more on top and mix it in. Nontoxic. BTW, how deep a layer of litter are you using, and what size box? And what do you mean "flushable litter"? If you are putting the plain old dusty clay stuff in the toilet, you won’t be flushing for long. Since you mention four flights of stairs, I assume you are in an apartment building, so gravity and the size of the drain pipes are on your side. But the clay does not break down, so it is filling up the waste water system somewhere. If I emptied a litter box even into the upstairs toilet, we’d be swimming in the bathroom in a day. Or are you just flushing the lumps? Those you can scoop and flush. The litter will last longer and stink less. Some cats won’t try to bury in a small box or in a thin layer of litter. If you are getting the entire box-full into your toilet in one flush, you probably aren’t giving Kai enough litter to bury  anything IN. Most of our cats prefer to go outside, but even the one who would rather use a box dig a hole halfway to China before she will go, and burying is a really major earth-moving task which involves scratching litter from all corners of the box. Unless the litter isn’t fresh, in which case she plants her front feet IN the box, her back feet on the edge, and lets go. Her box is now 12" x 24" and 11" deep, with a layer about 3" deep of litter. She can still perch tail-side in the air and go. Amazing the range she can achieve at that distance… kind of like a fountain. And of course no burying. The generic clay litter should only really be "dusty" when you first pour it into the box. Then it will choke you, but if you survive the litter should not be dusty–at least not airborne–after that. Our most successful litter for all concerned is the dirt-cheap generic stuff in 25lb bags from a big chain like CostCo. No clumping, no perfume, no prize in the bottom of the bag, but it does the job. You CAN give Kai a little refresher course in Burying 101 if you stand by until he is done and then–assuming the litter is both clean and deep enough–take his wee front paw and show him how. All the time uttering absolutely ridiculous choruses of "GOOD Kai… that’s right, bury the [ ]… VERY good, Kai." Better to do this when no one can hear you. Bitchie was having some kidney problems AND some laziness, and starting just soaking the bed at night rather than making the trip to the garage and maybe finding an unacceptable litter. After the medication worked and the change of diet for her kidneys, she still had the attitude. Whoever is up last carries her into the garage (attached… there’s no going outside involved), places her in the box and says "GOOD Bitchie. Make a wee-wee for mama." Or papa. I have never felt quite as ridiculous as when I’m standing in my robe making "whssh-whssssh" sounds and saying "Wee-wee in the box." But it works. Finally there are aerosol fresheners specifically for "pet odors". Yes, I know they are bad for the ozone layer, but I rather doubt cat-poo vapors are good for the ozone layer either, and they will… clear the air. And the best thing I’ve found for under the box is one of those Astroturf mats meant for wiping your boots on before you come in the house. They come in larger sizes, and even decorator colors in case football-field green doesn’t coordinate with your towels. The litter falls into the spaces between the blades of "grass", and the whole thing is easy to shake out and rinse clean. Unlike carpet, it won’t absorb any accidents, so it won’t get smelly itself. Repo Man makes a federal secret out of where his bathroom is. Even in the worst rain, he will find a secret spot. As a kitten he had several surgeries, and I was supposed to keep him in both for protecting the healing wound, and to check his stools. We were living in the city then, and his favorite spot was under a tree in the front yard. The only way I could get him to stop "holding it" was to dig up some dirt from under HIS tree, and put it in a litter box. Since there were then more than three cats in the house, and the bathroom about 3" x 4", it got pretty crowded. And Repo had to be closed in, alone, before he would do anything. He would use the dirt only once. And there was NOTHING clumpable, dust-free, or odor-fighting… this was just plain brown dirt. I had muddy paw prints down the hallway carpet for months. Good luck… and keep that scoop handy! DL

Response:

>Ron and I have been on this search for the ideal cat litter ever since we >brought Kai home. . .

When it comes to cat litter, its a personal choice (the cat’s, not yours). Just like some people will never use a porta-potty, cats go where they feel comfortable, without strange smelling or feeling stuff under foot. I’ve never used the newer "pine" stuff; me AND the cats are happy using standard clumping litter like Tidy Scoop. But years ago, before clumpable litter there was a product on the market that consisted of alfalfa. Biodegradable and natural, it looked like (and made pretty much like) the pellets feed to rabbits. Well, my cat must have been part rabbit; instead of using it as litter, he would eat it. Marc

Response:

Ron and I have been on this search for the ideal cat litter ever since we brought Kai home.  We want a clumping, dust-free, flushable litter that does an amazing job of absorbing odors.  We bought a litterbox with a cover that has a little charcoal filter in it.  We stuck a little piece of carpeting in front of the box, to catch any stray bits of litter that may have stuck to Kai’s paws as he jumps out of the box.  But the first box of litter that we bought just about choked us with dust. So we tried a non-flushable kind.  Still mighty dusty, and it didn’t stop the odor at all.  And it wasn’t nearly as convenient as the flushable stuff. Then we tried the kind that is made from pine trees or something.  I don’t remember the name of it right now, but it looks like little pellets and is supposed to turn into mulch eventually.   Heehee.  Poor Kai.  He didn’t know what to make of it, but he sure didn’t like it!  We poured the old brand on top, according to the directions on the bag, but he still seemed to know that there was something funny in his litterbox.  He isn’t the world’s greatest at burying his litter to begin with (hence the problems that we have with odor), and he got even worse with the pine stuff.  Didn’t want to touch it!  And Ron, who is in charge of the box, says that Kai was "holding it" rather than risk using the new stuff.  Poor little kitty.  When we changed back to an ordinary brand of litter yesterday afternoon, Kai used the box two or three times in 45 minutes.  He looked much relieved afterward.  :)   That’s the end of our experimentation with unusual sorts of litter.  I guess that we’ll have to deal with the dust and the smell; at least we can clean up the flushable kind as often as we think necessary without having to run up and down four flights of stairs…  I wish that he had paid closer attention when his mother was teaching him how to bury, though… I’ve read on these groups that some people really like the pine stuff; that their cats use it and that it really is effective in fighting odor problems.  Guess it goes to show that YMMV; Kai is laid back, but don’t mess with his toilet! Janet

Response:

Janet, there is a natural litter, made from corn or wheat. The consistency is like sand. It is flushable, clumps, no odor, no dust. I use the wheat based one called SwheatScoop. My cat likes it and I like it too.                                       Maria

Response:

>I’ve read on these groups that some people really like the pine stuff; >that their cats use it and that it really is effective in fighting odor >problems.  Guess it goes to show that YMMV; Kai is laid back, but don’t >mess with his toilet!

When I brought my eight month old male kitten home I bought some of the pine stuff.  He didn’t use the box for over 24 hours and got bloated and threw up. I went to the grocery and bought a container of Tidy Cat scoop (not too much dust) and he used his box within an hour of me putting that in.  After a few hours had passed that box looked like a dog had used it there was so much in it.  The poor kitty had been holding it rather than use the pine stuff.   I realize it is organic and all of that type of thing but if it caused the cat to put his elimination (both urinary and fecal) on hold it can cause far more serious problems than clay litter ever could.

Response:

Janet– Nature’s Miracle, which is great as a liquid clean up AFTER the mistake, also comes in a powder. You can sprinkle some in with the litter and Kai will never notice the difference. Less expensive but also worth a try is plain old Arm & Hammer baking soda. Put some in the bottom of the box before you dump in the litter, and then pour more on top and mix it in. Nontoxic. BTW, how deep a layer of litter are you using, and what size box? And what do you mean "flushable litter"? If you are putting the plain old dusty clay stuff in the toilet, you won’t be flushing for long. Since you mention four flights of stairs, I assume you are in an apartment building, so gravity and the size of the drain pipes are on your side. But the clay does not break down, so it is filling up the waste water system somewhere. If I emptied a litter box even into the upstairs toilet, we’d be swimming in the bathroom in a day. Or are you just flushing the lumps? Those you can scoop and flush. The litter will last longer and stink less. Some cats won’t try to bury in a small box or in a thin layer of litter. If you are getting the entire box-full into your toilet in one flush, you probably aren’t giving Kai enough litter to bury  anything IN. Most of our cats prefer to go outside, but even the one who would rather use a box dig a hole halfway to China before she will go, and burying is a really major earth-moving task which involves scratching litter from all corners of the box. Unless the litter isn’t fresh, in which case she plants her front feet IN the box, her back feet on the edge, and lets go. Her box is now 12" x 24" and 11" deep, with a layer about 3" deep of litter. She can still perch tail-side in the air and go. Amazing the range she can achieve at that distance… kind of like a fountain. And of course no burying. The generic clay litter should only really be "dusty" when you first pour it into the box. Then it will choke you, but if you survive the litter should not be dusty–at least not airborne–after that. Our most successful litter for all concerned is the dirt-cheap generic stuff in 25lb bags from a big chain like CostCo. No clumping, no perfume, no prize in the bottom of the bag, but it does the job. You CAN give Kai a little refresher course in Burying 101 if you stand by until he is done and then–assuming the litter is both clean and deep enough–take his wee front paw and show him how. All the time uttering absolutely ridiculous choruses of "GOOD Kai… that’s right, bury the [ ]… VERY good, Kai." Better to do this when no one can hear you. Bitchie was having some kidney problems AND some laziness, and starting just soaking the bed at night rather than making the trip to the garage and maybe finding an unacceptable litter. After the medication worked and the change of diet for her kidneys, she still had the attitude. Whoever is up last carries her into the garage (attached… there’s no going outside involved), places her in the box and says "GOOD Bitchie. Make a wee-wee for mama." Or papa. I have never felt quite as ridiculous as when I’m standing in my robe making "whssh-whssssh" sounds and saying "Wee-wee in the box." But it works. Finally there are aerosol fresheners specifically for "pet odors". Yes, I know they are bad for the ozone layer, but I rather doubt cat-poo vapors are good for the ozone layer either, and they will… clear the air. And the best thing I’ve found for under the box is one of those Astroturf mats meant for wiping your boots on before you come in the house. They come in larger sizes, and even decorator colors in case football-field green doesn’t coordinate with your towels. The litter falls into the spaces between the blades of "grass", and the whole thing is easy to shake out and rinse clean. Unlike carpet, it won’t absorb any accidents, so it won’t get smelly itself. Repo Man makes a federal secret out of where his bathroom is. Even in the worst rain, he will find a secret spot. As a kitten he had several surgeries, and I was supposed to keep him in both for protecting the healing wound, and to check his stools. We were living in the city then, and his favorite spot was under a tree in the front yard. The only way I could get him to stop "holding it" was to dig up some dirt from under HIS tree, and put it in a litter box. Since there were then more than three cats in the house, and the bathroom about 3" x 4", it got pretty crowded. And Repo had to be closed in, alone, before he would do anything. He would use the dirt only once. And there was NOTHING clumpable, dust-free, or odor-fighting… this was just plain brown dirt. I had muddy paw prints down the hallway carpet for months. Good luck… and keep that scoop handy! DL

Response:

>Ron and I have been on this search for the ideal cat litter ever since we >brought Kai home. . .

When it comes to cat litter, its a personal choice (the cat’s, not yours). Just like some people will never use a porta-potty, cats go where they feel comfortable, without strange smelling or feeling stuff under foot. I’ve never used the newer "pine" stuff; me AND the cats are happy using standard clumping litter like Tidy Scoop. But years ago, before clumpable litter there was a product on the market that consisted of alfalfa. Biodegradable and natural, it looked like (and made pretty much like) the pellets feed to rabbits. Well, my cat must have been part rabbit; instead of using it as litter, he would eat it. Marc

Response:

Ron and I have been on this search for the ideal cat litter ever since we brought Kai home.  We want a clumping, dust-free, flushable litter that does an amazing job of absorbing odors.  We bought a litterbox with a cover that has a little charcoal filter in it.  We stuck a little piece of carpeting in front of the box, to catch any stray bits of litter that may have stuck to Kai’s paws as he jumps out of the box.  But the first box of litter that we bought just about choked us with dust. So we tried a non-flushable kind.  Still mighty dusty, and it didn’t stop the odor at all.  And it wasn’t nearly as convenient as the flushable stuff. Then we tried the kind that is made from pine trees or something.  I don’t remember the name of it right now, but it looks like little pellets and is supposed to turn into mulch eventually.   Heehee.  Poor Kai.  He didn’t know what to make of it, but he sure didn’t like it!  We poured the old brand on top, according to the directions on the bag, but he still seemed to know that there was something funny in his litterbox.  He isn’t the world’s greatest at burying his litter to begin with (hence the problems that we have with odor), and he got even worse with the pine stuff.  Didn’t want to touch it!  And Ron, who is in charge of the box, says that Kai was "holding it" rather than risk using the new stuff.  Poor little kitty.  When we changed back to an ordinary brand of litter yesterday afternoon, Kai used the box two or three times in 45 minutes.  He looked much relieved afterward.  :)   That’s the end of our experimentation with unusual sorts of litter.  I guess that we’ll have to deal with the dust and the smell; at least we can clean up the flushable kind as often as we think necessary without having to run up and down four flights of stairs…  I wish that he had paid closer attention when his mother was teaching him how to bury, though… I’ve read on these groups that some people really like the pine stuff; that their cats use it and that it really is effective in fighting odor problems.  Guess it goes to show that YMMV; Kai is laid back, but don’t mess with his toilet! Janet

Response:

Janet, there is a natural litter, made from corn or wheat. The consistency is like sand. It is flushable, clumps, no odor, no dust. I use the wheat based one called SwheatScoop. My cat likes it and I like it too.                                       Maria

Response:

>I’ve read on these groups that some people really like the pine stuff; >that their cats use it and that it really is effective in fighting odor >problems.  Guess it goes to show that YMMV; Kai is laid back, but don’t >mess with his toilet!

When I brought my eight month old male kitten home I bought some of the pine stuff.  He didn’t use the box for over 24 hours and got bloated and threw up. I went to the grocery and bought a container of Tidy Cat scoop (not too much dust) and he used his box within an hour of me putting that in.  After a few hours had passed that box looked like a dog had used it there was so much in it.  The poor kitty had been holding it rather than use the pine stuff.   I realize it is organic and all of that type of thing but if it caused the cat to put his elimination (both urinary and fecal) on hold it can cause far more serious problems than clay litter ever could.

Response:

Janet– Nature’s Miracle, which is great as a liquid clean up AFTER the mistake, also comes in a powder. You can sprinkle some in with the litter and Kai will never notice the difference. Less expensive but also worth a try is plain old Arm & Hammer baking soda. Put some in the bottom of the box before you dump in the litter, and then pour more on top and mix it in. Nontoxic. BTW, how deep a layer of litter are you using, and what size box? And what do you mean "flushable litter"? If you are putting the plain old dusty clay stuff in the toilet, you won’t be flushing for long. Since you mention four flights of stairs, I assume you are in an apartment building, so gravity and the size of the drain pipes are on your side. But the clay does not break down, so it is filling up the waste water system somewhere. If I emptied a litter box even into the upstairs toilet, we’d be swimming in the bathroom in a day. Or are you just flushing the lumps? Those you can scoop and flush. The litter will last longer and stink less. Some cats won’t try to bury in a small box or in a thin layer of litter. If you are getting the entire box-full into your toilet in one flush, you probably aren’t giving Kai enough litter to bury  anything IN. Most of our cats prefer to go outside, but even the one who would rather use a box dig a hole halfway to China before she will go, and burying is a really major earth-moving task which involves scratching litter from all corners of the box. Unless the litter isn’t fresh, in which case she plants her front feet IN the box, her back feet on the edge, and lets go. Her box is now 12" x 24" and 11" deep, with a layer about 3" deep of litter. She can still perch tail-side in the air and go. Amazing the range she can achieve at that distance… kind of like a fountain. And of course no burying. The generic clay litter should only really be "dusty" when you first pour it into the box. Then it will choke you, but if you survive the litter should not be dusty–at least not airborne–after that. Our most successful litter for all concerned is the dirt-cheap generic stuff in 25lb bags from a big chain like CostCo. No clumping, no perfume, no prize in the bottom of the bag, but it does the job. You CAN give Kai a little refresher course in Burying 101 if you stand by until he is done and then–assuming the litter is both clean and deep enough–take his wee front paw and show him how. All the time uttering absolutely ridiculous choruses of "GOOD Kai… that’s right, bury the [ ]… VERY good, Kai." Better to do this when no one can hear you. Bitchie was having some kidney problems AND some laziness, and starting just soaking the bed at night rather than making the trip to the garage and maybe finding an unacceptable litter. After the medication worked and the change of diet for her kidneys, she still had the attitude. Whoever is up last carries her into the garage (attached… there’s no going outside involved), places her in the box and says "GOOD Bitchie. Make a wee-wee for mama." Or papa. I have never felt quite as ridiculous as when I’m standing in my robe making "whssh-whssssh" sounds and saying "Wee-wee in the box." But it works. Finally there are aerosol fresheners specifically for "pet odors". Yes, I know they are bad for the ozone layer, but I rather doubt cat-poo vapors are good for the ozone layer either, and they will… clear the air. And the best thing I’ve found for under the box is one of those Astroturf mats meant for wiping your boots on before you come in the house. They come in larger sizes, and even decorator colors in case football-field green doesn’t coordinate with your towels. The litter falls into the spaces between the blades of "grass", and the whole thing is easy to shake out and rinse clean. Unlike carpet, it won’t absorb any accidents, so it won’t get smelly itself. Repo Man makes a federal secret out of where his bathroom is. Even in the worst rain, he will find a secret spot. As a kitten he had several surgeries, and I was supposed to keep him in both for protecting the healing wound, and to check his stools. We were living in the city then, and his favorite spot was under a tree in the front yard. The only way I could get him to stop "holding it" was to dig up some dirt from under HIS tree, and put it in a litter box. Since there were then more than three cats in the house, and the bathroom about 3" x 4", it got pretty crowded. And Repo had to be closed in, alone, before he would do anything. He would use the dirt only once. And there was NOTHING clumpable, dust-free, or odor-fighting… this was just plain brown dirt. I had muddy paw prints down the hallway carpet for months. Good luck… and keep that scoop handy! DL

Response:

Question:

GOOD DAY! I am Maribelle Sy, a senior Hotel and Restaurant Management student of St. Scholastica’s College and presently working on my thesis entitled "A Study on the Relation of National Character Based on Hofstede’s Cultural Dimensions and Their Complaining Behavior Toward Unsatisfactory Hotel Services." Your cooperation in answering this questionnaire will be highly appreciated. Rest assured that results would be used only for academic purposes. Thank you very much! P.S. Please visit the website http://www.meetdux.com/msy/default.htm for the questionnaire. Thanks!

Response:

This website doesn’t work right–as of 12/12 2130 EST it keeps giving errors.   The survey isn’t very well designed, requiring single answers where many people would probably want to provide multiple answers.   Probably not worth the time in its present state. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->GOOD DAY! I am Maribelle Sy, a senior Hotel and Restaurant Management >student of St. Scholastica’s College and presently working on my >thesis entitled "A Study on the Relation of National Character Based >on Hofstede’s Cultural Dimensions and Their Complaining Behavior >Toward Unsatisfactory Hotel Services." Your cooperation in answering >this questionnaire will be highly appreciated. Rest assured that >results would be used only for academic purposes. Thank you very much! >P.S. Please visit the website http://www.meetdux.com/msy/default.htm >for the questionnaire. Thanks!

Response:

> GOOD DAY! I am Maribelle Sy, a senior Hotel and Restaurant Management > student of St. Scholastica’s College and presently working on my > thesis entitled "A Study on the Relation of National Character Based > on Hofstede’s Cultural Dimensions and Their Complaining Behavior > Toward Unsatisfactory Hotel Services." Your cooperation in answering > this questionnaire will be highly appreciated. Rest assured that > results would be used only for academic purposes. Thank you very much! > P.S. Please visit the website http://www.meetdux.com/msy/default.htm > for the questionnaire. Thanks!

I took the survey – I’ll paraphrase for the benefit of people who haven’t the time or energy to do it themselves:    SURVEY    Please indicate your nationality:    ____ American       ____ Chinese    For each of the following bizarre and/or inconsequential scenarios,    please indicate the steps you would be most likely to take:    A) Take no action    B) Wait until dark, then burn the building down    C) Contact your cousin in the mafia and have the proprietor killed    D) Recite a poem about the tragedy and then burn yourself to death on the       town square    Scenario 1:    You arrive at a hotel and you are deeply disturbed to find that your    pillowcase is white, even though you specifically whispered "a yellow    pillow please" just after hanging up the phone when making your    reservation. This makes you feel uncomfortable and foolish. What are you    likely to do now?    Scenario 2:    You enter your hotel room and turn on the television, and discover that    it is tuned to the news, even though you would have preferred to watch a    sitcom without having to press any buttons on the remote control. This    makes you feel uncomfortable and foolish. What are you likely to do now?    Scenario 3:    You visit the hotel restaurant for dinner and order a steak. The steak    arrives and is quite tasty, however, the person at the table next to you    is reading a copy of "The Corrections" which you found to be a tedious    book. You alert the maitre d’ and he apologizes politely but tells you    there is little that he can do. This makes you feel uncomfortable and    foolish. What are you likely to do now?    Scenario 4:    You stay two extra days in your room and when you receive your bill, you    are alarmed to see that you have been charged for them, making you feel    uncomfortable and foolish. What are you likely to do now?    Scenario 5:    You arrive at the hotel with a live human heart on ice belonging to the    Prime Minister of France. You leave the heart on your room’s balcony, and    when you return from your polo match you are disappointed to see that the    ice has melted in the sun and the heart has taken on a greenish tinge.    You complain to the manager and he says that he is sorry, they do not    have any spare French hearts and suggests that next time you trust the    heart to the on-site infirmary for safekeeping. This makes you feel    uncomfortable and foolish. What are you likely to do now?    Scenario 6:    You arrive at a hotel, only to learn that it has been taken over by    Martians. They transport you to their planet and make you King. You rule    over them with a wise benevolence, but after fifty years they start to    get slack and bring you lukewarm tea. This makes you feel uncomfortable    and foolish. What are you likely to do now?    Thank you for participating in this survey. miguel — Hit The Road! Photos and tales from around the world: http://travel.u.nu New mini photo-feature: Life in DC: http://travel.u.nu/dc/

Response:

The site works perfectly here.  The survey is quite limited since it only applies to 2 nationalities and I don’t fit into either of them.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> This website doesn’t work right–as of 12/12 2130 EST it keeps giving > errors.   The survey isn’t very well designed, requiring single > answers where many people would probably want to provide multiple > answers.   Probably not worth the time in its present state. >GOOD DAY! I am Maribelle Sy, a senior Hotel and Restaurant Management >student of St. Scholastica’s College and presently working on my >thesis entitled "A Study on the Relation of National Character Based >on Hofstede’s Cultural Dimensions and Their Complaining Behavior >Toward Unsatisfactory Hotel Services." Your cooperation in answering >this questionnaire will be highly appreciated. Rest assured that >results would be used only for academic purposes. Thank you very much! >P.S. Please visit the website http://www.meetdux.com/msy/default.htm >for the questionnaire. Thanks!

Response:

>GOOD DAY! I am Maribelle Sy, a senior Hotel and Restaurant Management >student of St. Scholastica’s College and presently working on my >thesis entitled "A Study on the Relation of National Character Based >on Hofstede’s Cultural Dimensions and Their Complaining Behavior >Toward Unsatisfactory Hotel Services." Your cooperation in answering >this questionnaire will be highly appreciated. Rest assured that >results would be used only for academic purposes. Thank you very much!

You’re welcome, but remember that you can’t conclude much from a voluntary survey on the www. Oh, and this was the result when I tried to send the completed survey: Error Occurred While Processing Request Error Diagnostic Information An error occurred while evaluating the expression: #Form.b2# Error near line 39, column 5. Error resolving parameter FORM.B2 The specified form field cannot be found. This problem is very likely due to the fact that you have misspelled the form field name. The error occurred while processing an element with a general identifier of (#Form.b2#), occupying document position (39:4) to (39:12) in the template file O:Hosted Web SitesDuxRaymond.Symeetdux_comwwwmsymail.cfm. Browser: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; Windows NT 5.0) Remote Address: 208.59.247.9 HTTP Referrer: http://www.meetdux.com/msy/default.htm I won’t take it again, I’m sorry to say. You need to change it to allow for multiple responses and "Other (specify)." I would never request a particular color of pillowcases; I would never count on a wakeup call as the only think that wakes me up, but would make sure I had an alarm clock or a clock radio with a working alarm (which I would test beforehand); I would always ask what time checkout is (someone who checks out at 3 P.M. and complains about being charged an extra $20 is an idiot); but if I put an item in a safe deposit box for safe keeping and it was stolen, I’d sue. Michael

Response:

> GOOD DAY! I am Maribelle Sy, a senior Hotel and Restaurant Management > student of St. Scholastica’s College and presently working on my > thesis entitled "A Study on the Relation of National Character Based > on Hofstede’s Cultural Dimensions and Their Complaining Behavior > Toward Unsatisfactory Hotel Services." Your cooperation in answering > this questionnaire will be highly appreciated. Rest assured that > results would be used only for academic purposes. Thank you very much! > P.S. Please visit the website http://www.meetdux.com/msy/default.htm > for the questionnaire. Thanks!

I did fill it out and it returned an error message. What is your hypothesis/hypotheses? One group is nastier than the other? Your sampling technique does not seem scientific. Be sure you put down on your thesis that you got your samples from some strangers on the Internet.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> GOOD DAY! I am Maribelle Sy, a senior Hotel and Restaurant Management > student of St. Scholastica’s College and presently working on my > thesis entitled "A Study on the Relation of National Character Based > on Hofstede’s Cultural Dimensions and Their Complaining Behavior > Toward Unsatisfactory Hotel Services." Your cooperation in answering > this questionnaire will be highly appreciated. Rest assured that > results would be used only for academic purposes. Thank you very much! > P.S. Please visit the website http://www.meetdux.com/msy/default.htm > for the questionnaire. Thanks! > I took the survey – I’ll paraphrase for the benefit of people who haven’t > the time or energy to do it themselves: >    SURVEY >    Please indicate your nationality: >    ____ American       ____ Chinese >    For each of the following bizarre and/or inconsequential scenarios, >    please indicate the steps you would be most likely to take: >    A) Take no action >    B) Wait until dark, then burn the building down >    C) Contact your cousin in the mafia and have the proprietor killed >    D) Recite a poem about the tragedy and then burn yourself to death on the >       town square >    Scenario 1: >    You arrive at a hotel and you are deeply disturbed to find that your >    pillowcase is white, even though you specifically whispered "a yellow >    pillow please" just after hanging up the phone when making your >    reservation. This makes you feel uncomfortable and foolish. What are you >    likely to do now? >    Scenario 2: >    You enter your hotel room and turn on the television, and discover that >    it is tuned to the news, even though you would have preferred to watch a >    sitcom without having to press any buttons on the remote control. This >    makes you feel uncomfortable and foolish. What are you likely to do now? >    Scenario 3: >    You visit the hotel restaurant for dinner and order a steak. The steak >    arrives and is quite tasty, however, the person at the table next to you >    is reading a copy of "The Corrections" which you found to be a tedious >    book. You alert the maitre d’ and he apologizes politely but tells you >    there is little that he can do. This makes you feel uncomfortable and >    foolish. What are you likely to do now? >    Scenario 4: >    You stay two extra days in your room and when you receive your bill, you >    are alarmed to see that you have been charged for them, making you feel >    uncomfortable and foolish. What are you likely to do now? >    Scenario 5: >    You arrive at the hotel with a live human heart on ice belonging to the >    Prime Minister of France. You leave the heart on your room’s balcony, and >    when you return from your polo match you are disappointed to see that the >    ice has melted in the sun and the heart has taken on a greenish tinge. >    You complain to the manager and he says that he is sorry, they do not >    have any spare French hearts and suggests that next time you trust the >    heart to the on-site infirmary for safekeeping. This makes you feel >    uncomfortable and foolish. What are you likely to do now? >    Scenario 6: >    You arrive at a hotel, only to learn that it has been taken over by >    Martians. They transport you to their planet and make you King. You rule >    over them with a wise benevolence, but after fifty years they start to >    get slack and bring you lukewarm tea. This makes you feel uncomfortable >    and foolish. What are you likely to do now? >    Thank you for participating in this survey. > miguel > — > Hit The Road! Photos and tales from around the world: http://travel.u.nu > New mini photo-feature: Life in DC: http://travel.u.nu/dc/

That’s a stupid survey.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->GOOD DAY! I am Maribelle Sy, a senior Hotel and Restaurant Management >student of St. Scholastica’s College and presently working on my >thesis entitled "A Study on the Relation of National Character Based >on Hofstede’s Cultural Dimensions and Their Complaining Behavior >Toward Unsatisfactory Hotel Services." Your cooperation in answering >this questionnaire will be highly appreciated. Rest assured that >results would be used only for academic purposes. Thank you very much! > You’re welcome, but remember that you can’t conclude much from a > voluntary survey on the www. > Oh, and this was the result when I tried to send the completed survey: > Error Occurred While Processing Request > Error Diagnostic Information > An error occurred while evaluating the expression: > #Form.b2# > Error near line 39, column 5. > Error resolving parameter FORM.B2 > The specified form field cannot be found. This problem is very likely > due to the fact that you have misspelled the form field name. > The error occurred while processing an element with a general > identifier of (#Form.b2#), occupying document position (39:4) to > (39:12) in the template file O:Hosted Web > SitesDuxRaymond.Symeetdux_comwwwmsymail.cfm. > Browser: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; Windows NT 5.0) > Remote Address: 208.59.247.9 > HTTP Referrer: http://www.meetdux.com/msy/default.htm > I won’t take it again, I’m sorry to say. You need to change it to > allow for multiple responses and "Other (specify)." > I would never request a particular color of pillowcases; I would never > count on a wakeup call as the only think that wakes me up, but would > make sure I had an alarm clock or a clock radio with a working alarm > (which I would test beforehand); I would always ask what time checkout > is (someone who checks out at 3 P.M. and complains about being charged > an extra $20 is an idiot); but if I put an item in a safe deposit box > for safe keeping and it was stolen, I’d sue. > Michael

       Hello Michael! I’m sorry for the inconvinience. The error has occured because you weren’t able to answer all of the questions, make sure that all the questions are answered. regarding the multiple responses, i’m working on it. thanks for sharing your opinion regarding the website.

Response:

The error happens even when the form is completely filled out. I use the Mozilla browser which should act the same as  Netscape 6. Did you test with both Netscape and Explorer? Please look at rec.travel.air for my question re: Hofstede values for China Don’t let some of the comments get you down. One of your scenarios (3pm checkout) is unrealistic but you are trying to compare national responses not judge individual responses. There is no need for multiple responses, if you ask for the "most likely" response.

Response:

> Don’t let some of the comments get you down. One of your scenarios (3pm > checkout) is unrealistic but you are trying to compare national responses > not judge individual responses. There is no need for multiple responses, > if you ask for the "most likely" response.

The problem I had with the survey was that in most of the scenarios the issue was actually the guest’s fault (either because the guest actively did something wrong – as in the case of the late checkout and the stolen $1000 watch – or because the guest was worrying about mind-bogglingly trivial crud – as in the case of the waitress who didn’t know all the daily specials or the desk clerk who didn’t notice the guest trying to check in). Therefore I think this survey will self-select for pompous twits (of a different sort than I’m sure I’ll be accused of being after posting this message); others will find it silly and not complete it. miguel — Hit The Road! Photos and tales from around the world: http://travel.u.nu Latest addition: 80 photos from Guatemala

Response:

No kidding.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > GOOD DAY! I am Maribelle Sy, a senior Hotel and Restaurant Management > > student of St. Scholastica’s College and presently working on my > > thesis entitled "A Study on the Relation of National Character Based > > on Hofstede’s Cultural Dimensions and Their Complaining Behavior > > Toward Unsatisfactory Hotel Services." Your cooperation in answering > > this questionnaire will be highly appreciated. Rest assured that > > results would be used only for academic purposes. Thank you very much! > > P.S. Please visit the website http://www.meetdux.com/msy/default.htm > > for the questionnaire. Thanks! > I took the survey – I’ll paraphrase for the benefit of people who haven’t > the time or energy to do it themselves: >    SURVEY >    Please indicate your nationality: >    ____ American       ____ Chinese >    For each of the following bizarre and/or inconsequential scenarios, >    please indicate the steps you would be most likely to take: >    A) Take no action >    B) Wait until dark, then burn the building down >    C) Contact your cousin in the mafia and have the proprietor killed >    D) Recite a poem about the tragedy and then burn yourself to death on > the >       town square >    Scenario 1: >    You arrive at a hotel and you are deeply disturbed to find that your >    pillowcase is white, even though you specifically whispered "a yellow >    pillow please" just after hanging up the phone when making your >    reservation. This makes you feel uncomfortable and foolish. What are > you >    likely to do now? >    Scenario 2: >    You enter your hotel room and turn on the television, and discover that >    it is tuned to the news, even though you would have preferred to watch > a >    sitcom without having to press any buttons on the remote control. This >    makes you feel uncomfortable and foolish. What are you likely to do > now? >    Scenario 3: >    You visit the hotel restaurant for dinner and order a steak. The steak >    arrives and is quite tasty, however, the person at the table next to > you >    is reading a copy of "The Corrections" which you found to be a tedious >    book. You alert the maitre d’ and he apologizes politely but tells you >    there is little that he can do. This makes you feel uncomfortable and >    foolish. What are you likely to do now? >    Scenario 4: >    You stay two extra days in your room and when you receive your bill, > you >    are alarmed to see that you have been charged for them, making you feel >    uncomfortable and foolish. What are you likely to do now? >    Scenario 5: >    You arrive at the hotel with a live human heart on ice belonging to the >    Prime Minister of France. You leave the heart on your room’s balcony, > and >    when you return from your polo match you are disappointed to see that > the >    ice has melted in the sun and the heart has taken on a greenish tinge. >    You complain to the manager and he says that he is sorry, they do not >    have any spare French hearts and suggests that next time you trust the >    heart to the on-site infirmary for safekeeping. This makes you feel >    uncomfortable and foolish. What are you likely to do now? >    Scenario 6: >    You arrive at a hotel, only to learn that it has been taken over by >    Martians. They transport you to their planet and make you King. You > rule >    over them with a wise benevolence, but after fifty years they start to >    get slack and bring you lukewarm tea. This makes you feel uncomfortable >    and foolish. What are you likely to do now? >    Thank you for participating in this survey. > miguel > — > Hit The Road! Photos and tales from around the world: http://travel.u.nu > New mini photo-feature: Life in DC: http://travel.u.nu/dc/ > That’s a stupid survey.

Response:

"> – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The problem I had with the survey was that in most of the scenarios the > issue was actually the guest’s fault (either because the guest actively did > something wrong – as in the case of the late checkout and the stolen $1000 > watch – or because the guest was worrying about mind-bogglingly trivial crud > – as in the case of the waitress who didn’t know all the daily specials or > the desk clerk who didn’t notice the guest trying to check in). > Therefore I think this survey will self-select for pompous twits (of a > different sort than I’m sure I’ll be accused of being after posting this > message); others will find it silly and not complete it. > miguel > —

The waitress also handled the silverware in an unsanitary fashion. I’ve left a $1000 item (laptop) in hotel rooms and would not feel I was at fault if someone stole it. I can relate to the hotel check-in scenario, I was recently at a Radisson hotel where the check-in clerk answered 6-8 consecutive phone calls while I was standing in front of her. Not her personal fault, but a fault in hotel management to not split up tasks like that. Yes, I did complain to management. I can see a problem, though. The survey seems as if it could be equally uncovering national differences in characteristics such as tendency to put responsibility on the victim and expectations of hotel service (or pomposity if you prefer) rather than just propensity to complain. It probably should have additional questions such as "how seriously do you view this problem" and "is it your own damn fault?"

Response:

How about Chinese Americans?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> GOOD DAY! I am Maribelle Sy, a senior Hotel and Restaurant Management > student of St. Scholastica’s College and presently working on my > thesis entitled "A Study on the Relation of National Character Based > on Hofstede’s Cultural Dimensions and Their Complaining Behavior > Toward Unsatisfactory Hotel Services." Your cooperation in answering > this questionnaire will be highly appreciated. Rest assured that > results would be used only for academic purposes. Thank you very much! > P.S. Please visit the website http://www.meetdux.com/msy/default.htm > for the questionnaire. Thanks!

Response:

pebbles… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Don’t let some of the comments get you down. One of your scenarios > (3pm checkout) is unrealistic but you are trying to compare national > responses not judge individual responses. There is no need for > multiple responses, if you ask for the "most likely" response. > The problem I had with the survey was that in most of the scenarios > the issue was actually the guest’s fault (either because the guest > actively did something wrong – as in the case of the late checkout and > the stolen $1000 watch – or because the guest was worrying about > mind-bogglingly trivial crud – as in the case of the waitress who > didn’t know all the daily specials or the desk clerk who didn’t notice > the guest trying to check in). > Therefore I think this survey will self-select for pompous twits (of a > different sort than I’m sure I’ll be accused of being after posting > this message); others will find it silly and not complete it. > miguel

Another problem is that the survey assumes that I will complain about these issues rather than attempting to resolve them in a more positive fashion.   For example, I might reprogram the television’s remote control to only be able to select the channel that runs reruns of _Seinfeld_ 24 hours a day.   At dinner, I might pull a copy of _The Best Short Stories of O. Henry_ from my briefcase and suggest to my fellow diner that it might be more conducive to good digestion.  As far as the /coeur sur la glace/ is concerned, I’d probably just leave it on the balcony.  After all, "The madness of an autumn prairie cold front [was] coming through.  You could feel it: something terrible was going to happen." Not wanting to pry, but what was I doing with the Prime Minister’s heart in the first place? R

Response:

>       Hello Michael! I’m sorry for the inconvinience. The error has >occured because you weren’t able to answer all of the questions

[snip] I don’t think you’re right; I believe I answered all of the questions, even though I thought some of the answers would be misleading. Michael

Response:

>The error happens even when the form is completely filled out. I use the >Mozilla browser which should act the same as  Netscape 6. Did you test with >both Netscape and Explorer?

I used IE Michael

Response:

That’s exactly the error I got and my reaction to the survey. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [snip]> >You’re welcome, but remember that you can’t conclude much from a >voluntary survey on the www. >Oh, and this was the result when I tried to send the completed survey: >Error Occurred While Processing Request >Error Diagnostic Information >An error occurred while evaluating the expression:

Response:

I use Internet Explorer 5.5 with Windows 98SE, filled out the damned questionaire twice, and got the same error message twice.   It’s a poor job of HTML coding that doesn’t tell you in plain language exactly where the error was. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->The error happens even when the form is completely filled out. I use the >Mozilla browser which should act the same as  Netscape 6. Did you test with >both Netscape and Explorer? >Please look at rec.travel.air for my question re: Hofstede values for China >Don’t let some of the comments get you down. One of your scenarios (3pm >checkout) is unrealistic but you are trying to compare national responses >not judge individual responses. There is no need for multiple responses, if >you ask for the "most likely" response.

Response:

For some reasons, I feel that the survey was created by someone from Singapore… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Don’t let some of the comments get you down. One of your scenarios (3pm > checkout) is unrealistic but you are trying to compare national responses > not judge individual responses. There is no need for multiple responses, > if you ask for the "most likely" response. > The problem I had with the survey was that in most of the scenarios the > issue was actually the guest’s fault (either because the guest actively did > something wrong – as in the case of the late checkout and the stolen $1000 > watch – or because the guest was worrying about mind-bogglingly trivial crud > – as in the case of the waitress who didn’t know all the daily specials or > the desk clerk who didn’t notice the guest trying to check in). > Therefore I think this survey will self-select for pompous twits (of a > different sort than I’m sure I’ll be accused of being after posting this > message); others will find it silly and not complete it. > miguel

Response:

> I use Internet Explorer 5.5 with Windows 98SE, filled out the damned > questionaire twice, and got the same error message twice.   It’s a > poor job of HTML coding that doesn’t tell you in plain language > exactly where the error was.

I had to check it out, out of curiosity I noticed that when I clicked on an answer, it erased the previous answer. I remedied this by completing the survey from the bottom up. FWIW. Kim

Response:

>> The problem I had with the survey was that in most of the scenarios the > issue was actually the guest’s fault (either because the guest actively > did something wrong – as in the case of the late checkout and the stolen > $1000 watch – or because the guest was worrying about mind-bogglingly > trivial crud – as in the case of the waitress who didn’t know all the > daily specials or the desk clerk who didn’t notice the guest trying to > check in). > Therefore I think this survey will self-select for pompous twits (of a > different sort than I’m sure I’ll be accused of being after posting this > message); others will find it silly and not complete it. > The waitress also handled the silverware in an unsanitary fashion.

I hope you don’t think that your eating irons are sterilized and then conveyed to your table on the wings of angels. They’re touched by all sorts of people, including the grubby people unloading the dishwasher. The waitress is the least of your worries. > I’ve left a $1000 item (laptop) in hotel rooms and would not feel I was at > fault if someone stole it.

No, but you could have done things to make it less likely. For instance, I always lock my laptop to something immobile (a simple, lightweight steel cable works great) or put it in the safe. > I can relate to the hotel check-in scenario, I was recently at a Radisson > hotel where the check-in clerk answered 6-8 consecutive phone calls while > I was standing in front of her. Not her personal fault, but a fault in > hotel management to not split up tasks like that. Yes, I did complain to > management.

Difference in style, I guess. Not in ten thousand years could I see myself complaining about something like that. Sometimes people are busy. I’m busy myself sometimes. We all survive. > I can see a problem, though. The survey seems as if it could be equally > uncovering national differences in characteristics such as tendency to put > responsibility on the victim and expectations of hotel service (or > pomposity if you prefer) rather than just propensity to complain. It > probably should have additional questions such as "how seriously do you > view this problem" and "is it your own damn fault?"

I’d be fascinated to see what the hypothesis actually is. miguel — Hit The Road! Photos and tales from around the world: http://travel.u.nu Latest addition: 80 photos from Guatemala

Response:

>   Scenario 6: >   You arrive at a hotel, only to learn that it has been taken over by >   Martians. They transport you to their planet and make you King. You rule >   over them with a wise benevolence, but after fifty years they start to >   get slack and bring you lukewarm tea. This makes you feel uncomfortable >   and foolish. What are you likely to do now?

*splorf*  You really need to put a warning on something like this, Miguel.  Now I have to wipe my morning espresso off my monitor and keyboad. >   Thank you for participating in this survey.

Thank you for the wonderful parody.  (Surely it *is* a parody, isn’t it….?) >miguel

C. who often feels uncomfortable and foolish, but has gotten used to it — Unit #02582:  Endangered Old-Growth Redwood Toothpick Artisans, LLC [TINEO-GRTALLC]

Response:

Response:

> >   Scenario 6: >   You arrive at a hotel, only to learn that it has been taken over by >   Martians. They transport you to their planet and make you King. You rule >   over them with a wise benevolence, but after fifty years they start to >   get slack and bring you lukewarm tea. This makes you feel uncomfortable >   and foolish. What are you likely to do now? > *splorf*  You really need to put a warning on something like this, > Miguel.  Now I have to wipe my morning espresso off my monitor and > keyboad.

Actually, it sounds like a story JF would tell…!!!! — Best Greg

Response:

> Difference in style, I guess. Not in ten thousand years could I see myself > complaining about something like that. Sometimes people are busy. I’m busy > myself sometimes. We all survive.

OK, I’ll sign a non-aggression pact and we don’t have to convince each other we’re right. It’s not just going to be a difference in personal style, there are going to be national cultural differences too. The view of whether something is trivial or the guests fault is likely to be very culturally dependent. I can’t say I know Chinese culture well, but I know that a Japanese hotel who caused a guest to miss a flight would take total responsibility and not put blame on the customer. That’s what makes the survey interesting

Response:

Question:

> Tehe!  Thanks!  I know what you’re talking about!  I got a laugh out of your > ending….."at least the asthma is very well controlled now."….after all > the other……I liked it!

I’m glad you liked it > Didn’t you say that the Depakote gave you headaches?  

No, just the opposite. I used to have migraine headaches pre-Depakote. > It’s early.  Try a neuro, if you’ve already had a EEG than take > the results of that EEG to a new neuro……you won’t need a new > one….right?  Looks good in my book.  Have you told all this to a neuro?  

Well, no, I haven’t actually spoke with a neurologist about it myself. It was a neurologist who read the EEG and basically said it was inconclusive, and then sent the report to my psychiatrist, who read the report to me and she suggested I go to my GP and get a referral to a neurologist. It’s all just a lot of tedious beauracracy to me. > I > mean all that you put here…tell your doc!  Sometimes they listen…at > least when you make them.

I hate trying to make them. It’s all so confusing sometimes.

Response:

Tehe!  Thanks!  I know what you’re talking about!  I got a laugh out of your ending….."at least the asthma is very well controlled now."….after all the other……I liked it! Didn’t you say that the Depakote gave you headaches?  Or was that just me dreaming?  It’s early.  Try a neuro, if you’ve already had a EEG than take the results of that EEG to a new neuro……you won’t need a new one….right?  Looks good in my book.  Have you told all this to a neuro?  I mean all that you put here…tell your doc!  Sometimes they listen…at least when you make them. — Lisa Dapper Butts http://www.geocities.com/lisa_gail AOL-LizzieAnon ICQ-8684104 yahoo-lisa_gail http://www.allexperts.com/displayExpert.asp?Expert=12513 I suffer from C.R.S…..can’t remember shit!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’m lodging a complaint with anyone who will listen > SNIP> > My psychiatrist, who got the EEG report and read it to me, suggested I > go to a neurologist. After listening to what that report said, I thought > it might be a good idea, but I’m tired. I don’t think I want to bother. > I think I just want to chuck the Lamictal, go back to the old level of > Depakote and forget about the rest. I mean, hey, if Depakote mostly > fixed the seizure problem, then what’s the point trying to prove I have > it or having a specialist tell me I have it then turn around and tell me > to take Depakote anyway? Seems kind of dumb and needlessly expensive, > doesn’t it? God only knows how much that EEG is going to cost, only to > have had them tell me they don’t know what it means exactly. Sure I have > some medical insurance, but there’re deductibles and co-pays. > Sigh, rant over. > On a more positive note, at least the asthma is very well controlled > now.

Response:

>Hope everything turns out well for you. I see my new pdoc on the 20th. >Wish me luck. >Hop

Good luck Hopps. "That’s it! Now the past is over but you are not alone Together we’ll fight Sylvester Stallone We will not be dragged down in his South China Sea Of macho bullshit and mediocrity" —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

> Well I understand that, it is just that the doctors I have seen so far > since my regular doc left are incredulous of the fact that the doc I > had would do this. Not SOP for the US.

Probably depends on where you are and the type of insurance you have. > It does interfere, very much so.

Then it’s probably a good idea to get it checked out. For me, this seizure business is old news, and I’m still not sure whether it’s worth the bother since nothing terribly bad has happened in the last few months. But my GP called me today and said she agrees with the psych doc that I ought to go to a neurologist. She’s supposed to get me a referral to one of all of two neurologists within a 250 mile radius… > I get dizzy first. Sleepy as a result I think.

Sounds like the same problem I have. Did you ever pass out completely? I did once, but very briefly, so briefly in fact that I didn’t think much of it. > No I think that he wants CAT scans.

Oh, well I don’t think those are that big a deal. Never had one myself, but I think it’s not too bad, maybe a little uncomfortable b/c you have to hold still for a while, but otherwise not bad. > I’ve been keeping track of how I feel for years and know that they are > connected. What I don’t know is what part my bad habits like caffeine > and cigarettes play into this. I am very committed to stopping, but > then I have been before.

I don’t smoke, but I know that even a little caffeine has a very strong (mostly negative) effect on me. I try to avoid it, but sometimes I’m just *so* tired and feel I need it to wake up at all. > I’ve been in and out of this bleak depression for the last few days. I > thought I had it licked, but now it is back, and I got the leg ache > back too. The damn leg ache is horrid. It’s not just the legs really.

I’m sorry to hear that, it sucks > Does the sound of scraping fingernails down a blackboard make you > shudder?

Nope. I was one of those rotten kids who did the fingernail scraping I *think* I know the feeling, though, I heard a piece of metal scraping on some ceramic tile once and didn’t much like it. I felt sort of shiverish all over, inside and out,  but it wasn’t very intense or anything. > I just took a muscle relaxant. They seem to help a lot. Suppose to be > non addictive.

Is it working? > I think I will turn in early. I just can’t face the world right now. > Thanks for the interest.

I hope things get better for you Hopper, I’ll be thinking of you.

Response:

> I wish I were where you are at. I have all of this to look forward > too. Start from scratch.

What’s up Hopper? Are you saying you don’t think you have Bipolar and do have something else? Or something in addition to Bipolar? > And you sound like you problems are very similar to mine.

Do you have these dizziness spells? > I hope that you end up getting what you need with the minimum of fuss.

Me too.

Response:

> I have never been formally diagnosed with BP, but I know that I am. I > have been seeing a general practitioner, who was very up on BP for > some reason and decided to treat me himself.

Well, if he was treating it then you were diagnosed! It doesn’t necessarily take a psychiatrist to do that. > He was straight from Canada, where doing this is common, but it is not here in the states. > Now he is gone and I must go pdoc shopping. I have no idea what I will > be getting into.

Be careful about the ones who just won’t listen and want to demand you take this drug or that drug and do this or do that…most of them I’ve met are like that. I feel pretty glad to have the psychiatrist I have now. She’s very smart, very nice, always listens and figures things out with me and not in spite of me. > As far as having something else too, I am pretty sure that I do, but > what that is, I do not know. ADHD, OCD, or a little of all, I really > don’t know.

I think we all have a little adhd and ocd, it’s just the intensity that matters. That is, whether it inteferes with your life in any way. > Yes, I have times where I get suddenly very dizzy and sleepy.

Sleepy right away or after the dizziness? If right away (remember I’m not a doctor) it *could* be narcolepsy, and you’d have to go to some sleep specialist to rule out that. The dizzy spells I have are not the sleepy type, they tend to make me feel confused and sleepy afterward, though. It could also be, like you said, side effects from meds. That’s one of my problems too, I think I need to stop taking everything to really find out what’s going on. > I fear that I will have to go have a long series of test to rule out > other possibilities, and even though I have insurance, there is the > copay and the loss of work time.

Yep. Plus just getting sick of tests, tests, tests. And some of them are very uncomfortable, like that EEG I had, god I don’t want to do that again. > My new mdoc wants to have some tests > done on my spine, because of the leg pains that I have.

Ack, do you have to do that thing where they stick the needle in and extract fluid? ~~shudder~~ > I am pretty > sure that this is being caused by Fybro or IBS. The flare ups that I > get correspond to mood crashes that I have. I will crash for two day > after having a bad bout of IBS. Non of the docs that I have talked > with even consider the two being related.

Maybe they are, maybe they aren’t. I guess I wouldn’t know. > Hope everything turns out well for you. I see my new pdoc on the 20th. > Wish me luck.

Best of luck. Be well.

Response:

Jen; I started taking Depakote a few years back for my bp. When my cancer spread to the brain and one of the effects of that was seizures, they increased the Depakote (often used to treat seizure of any cause) This has worked to lesson the seizures but hasn’t completely taken them away. And it is still helping with the bp. I am glad that you are taking the seizures seriously. They are nothing to mess around with. And as a consumer you have the right to more opinions and the right to another test if you feel you need them. Nobody knows better than I what a pain the in the butt it is to have to shuttle from Dr to Dr for test after test…but remember this….YOU ARE WORTH IT! There are patient advocates who might be able to help you coordinate info with all of your Drs and maybe even brings them together for a meeting. This is done very tactfully so as not to disturb each particular Drs sensitive ego <wink> The advocates are trained at the best way to accomplish this. The only gift is a portion of thyself                                                 R.W.Emerson Saya

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’m lodging a complaint with anyone who will listen > Ok…first it was bipolar disorder, then it was adhd, then it was > bipolar disorder plus adhd, now it’s bipolar disorder plus adhd plus > *possible* seizure disorder. Oh, this EEG I had (terrible experience, > btw) had spikes on it but the neurologist says "gee, those are possibly > epileptic and they are possibly ‘artifacts’" Artifacts being normal > variants or something gone wrong during the test (improper placement of > electrode, movement, whatever). So, all I’ve really got to say about it > all is: > !!WTF??!! > Now, I could have told anyone who asked that I’ve been having some kind > of seizure-like problems for years and years. I could have told anyone > who asked that 1000mg Depakote/day made it mostly go away. I could have > told anyone who asked that Dexedrine fixed the hyperactivity/attention > problems yet aggravated mood/seizure problems. I could have told anyone > who asked that Ritalin helped with the adhd, but aggravated seizure > problems considerably. I could have told anyone who asked that 1000mg > Depakote/day helped mood problems but not entirely, and did nothing for > adhd problems. I could tell anyone who asks that a lesser dose of > Depakote plus a low dose of Lamictal (now) is actually making the > seizure problems worse (ironic isn’t it? Sounds dumb doesn’t it?). I > could wonder to myself, since there’s really no point telling or asking > anymore, what to think of Wellbutrin since it obviously helps with the > mood problems but is it aggravating seizure problems? It certainly does > little for attention problems (but I guess little is better than > nothing). > The problem with all of this is that the people doing the asking are > spread across specialties that think they have nothing to do with one > another and each doesn’t fully understand the other. Where does this > leave me? Tired as all hell of seeing doctors, of trying to adjust > medication, of wondering what the hell is *really* wrong, of wondering > if it’s all just a figment of my imagination, wondering if I should just > up and walk away from it all. But I can’t do that b/c I don’t want the > What to do? I just want to forget about all of it and live my life, > trouble is when I try that it tends to take over my life without much > warning. What is ‘it’ you ask? How the heck should I know? People with > medical degrees pretend to know, but I don’t think they do. I > describe/present the same things over and over and one doctor says it’s > this, another doctor says it’s that, and still another says it’s > something else. Arg. > My psychiatrist, who got the EEG report and read it to me, suggested I > go to a neurologist. After listening to what that report said, I thought > it might be a good idea, but I’m tired. I don’t think I want to bother. > I think I just want to chuck the Lamictal, go back to the old level of > Depakote and forget about the rest. I mean, hey, if Depakote mostly > fixed the seizure problem, then what’s the point trying to prove I have > it or having a specialist tell me I have it then turn around and tell me > to take Depakote anyway? Seems kind of dumb and needlessly expensive, > doesn’t it? God only knows how much that EEG is going to cost, only to > have had them tell me they don’t know what it means exactly. Sure I have > some medical insurance, but there’re deductibles and co-pays. > Sigh, rant over. > On a more positive note, at least the asthma is very well controlled > now.

Response:

>so the EEG needs to be repeated with a 24 hour telemetry to follow, if >necessary.

Ack, that was a pretty bad experience that I’m not bent on repeating :/ >and if it is true that you have a seizure disorder, odds are slim to >none that you have adhd (because the seizure activity can account for >the attentional problems).  You’d need to be seizure free and still >have documented deficits in attention that can not be accounted for by >another process in order to meet criteria for adhd.

Well, that makes some sense, although I had seen a neurophysiologist, and he and another doctor in his office diagnosed the adhd. I had some psychological testing done there, an "evoked potential brain mapping" (which was normal) and a sleep test (during which I only slept a few minutes and in that time everything was normal). Of course, none of the testing there involved hyperventilation or strobe lights. > The catch-22 is >that every anticonvulsant has negative effects on attention–so, if >your seizures are controlled by meds then it is the meds that the >diagnostician should look at in explaining deficits in attention.

I’ve had attention problems before I began taking anti-epileptic drugs. > sounds like seizure activity; how’d you get the Rx for depakote?

I have bipolar disorder, Depakote is used for that as well and my psychiatrist prescribed it because lithium didn’t work for me. > as would be predicted if you have a seizure disorder.

Some types of seizures are actually treated with Dexedrine, though obviously not the kind I have if I have any at all. > if anything, probably made them worse.

I don’t seem to have any side effects from Depakote. It makes me sleepy when I first take it (I take it all at night before bed), but in the morning that effect has worn off. It’s been a god-send for me because I have trouble going to sleep. >Try consulting with a behavioral neurologist. I’d also hope that a >neuropsychologist would factor these things together.

I believe the other doctor I saw at the neurophysiologist’s office was a neuropychologist.

Response:

> This is an eloquent description of how difficult it can be > dealing with doctors. Unfortunately, most people end up > feeling tongue tied when there is actually a chance to > talk to the doctor about it. > Writing it down and giving it to the doctor would really help > get the message across.

It would probably be a good idea to write things down because I *always* unintentionally leave details out or forget to mention something entirely that might be important. The other problem is that I’m pretty likable I guess and end up having conversations about bikes, sailboats in the bay, cars, the weather, any number of random things that come up. I keep trying to stop doing that because any doctor or therapist I go to ends up getting sucked in to my enthusiasm for whatever random thing is on my mind that day. Sometimes things get done, but it’s difficult for that reason and others. I’m usually not taken seriously by anyone (or don’t feel like I am) because I’m usually very reserved/aloof/whatever about problems I’m having. I know, that’s the whole point of going to the doctor, but I always chicken out on being totally serious because I’ve been accused of being a hypochondriac so many times (despite the fact that 99% of the time the problems I’m having turn out to be real and documentable.).

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’m lodging a complaint with anyone who will listen >Jenwolf, >I wish you would print this out and take it to your psychiatrist. >This is an eloquent description of how difficult it can be >dealing with doctors. Unfortunately, most people end up >feeling tongue tied when there is actually a chance to >talk to the doctor about it. >Writing it down and giving it to the doctor would really help >get the message across.

To both Christopher & Jen:  Yes, great idea! She captured it so well. Good job Jen! Btw Jen, your logic does sound logical to me too, but maybe you should run it by the next doc to make sure.  Hope you’re feeling better Jen, as I can see how you’d be bummin’ because of it.     Zero1

Response:

> I’m lodging a complaint with anyone who will listen > Ok…first it was bipolar disorder, then it was adhd, then it was > bipolar disorder plus adhd, now it’s bipolar disorder plus adhd plus > *possible* seizure disorder. Oh, this EEG I had (terrible experience, > btw) had spikes on it but the neurologist says "gee, those are possibly > epileptic and they are possibly ‘artifacts’" Artifacts being normal > variants or something gone wrong during the test (improper placement of > electrode, movement, whatever). So, all I’ve really got to say about it > all is: > !!WTF??!!

so the EEG needs to be repeated with a 24 hour telemetry to follow, if necessary. and if it is true that you have a seizure disorder, odds are slim to none that you have adhd (because the seizure activity can account for the attentional problems).  You’d need to be seizure free and still have documented deficits in attention that can not be accounted for by another process in order to meet criteria for adhd.  The catch-22 is that every anticonvulsant has negative effects on attention–so, if your seizures are controlled by meds then it is the meds that the diagnostician should look at in explaining deficits in attention. > Now, I could have told anyone who asked that I’ve been having some kind > of seizure-like problems for years and years. I could have told anyone > who asked that 1000mg Depakote/day made it mostly go away.

sounds like seizure activity; how’d you get the Rx for depakote? > I could have > told anyone who asked that Dexedrine fixed the hyperactivity/attention > problems yet aggravated mood/seizure problems.

as would be predicted if you have a seizure disorder. > I could have told anyone > who asked that Ritalin helped with the adhd, but aggravated seizure > problems considerably. I could have told anyone who asked that 1000mg > Depakote/day helped mood problems but not entirely, and did nothing for > adhd problems.

if anything, probably made them worse. > I could tell anyone who asks that a lesser dose of > Depakote plus a low dose of Lamictal (now) is actually making the > seizure problems worse (ironic isn’t it? Sounds dumb doesn’t it?). I > could wonder to myself, since there’s really no point telling or asking > anymore, what to think of Wellbutrin since it obviously helps with the > mood problems but is it aggravating seizure problems?

possibly, but unless the dose if very very high, improbable. > It certainly does > little for attention problems (but I guess little is better than > nothing). > The problem with all of this is that the people doing the asking are > spread across specialties that think they have nothing to do with one > another and each doesn’t fully understand the other. Where does this > leave me? Tired as all hell of seeing doctors, of trying to adjust > medication, of wondering what the hell is *really* wrong, of wondering > if it’s all just a figment of my imagination, wondering if I should just > up and walk away from it all. But I can’t do that b/c I don’t want the

Try consulting with a behavioral neurologist. I’d also hope that a neuropsychologist would factor these things together. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> What to do? I just want to forget about all of it and live my life, > trouble is when I try that it tends to take over my life without much > warning. What is ‘it’ you ask? How the heck should I know? People with > medical degrees pretend to know, but I don’t think they do. I > describe/present the same things over and over and one doctor says it’s > this, another doctor says it’s that, and still another says it’s > something else. Arg. > My psychiatrist, who got the EEG report and read it to me, suggested I > go to a neurologist. After listening to what that report said, I thought > it might be a good idea, but I’m tired. I don’t think I want to bother. > I think I just want to chuck the Lamictal, go back to the old level of > Depakote and forget about the rest. I mean, hey, if Depakote mostly > fixed the seizure problem, then what’s the point trying to prove I have > it or having a specialist tell me I have it then turn around and tell me > to take Depakote anyway? Seems kind of dumb and needlessly expensive, > doesn’t it? God only knows how much that EEG is going to cost, only to > have had them tell me they don’t know what it means exactly. Sure I have > some medical insurance, but there’re deductibles and co-pays. > Sigh, rant over. > On a more positive note, at least the asthma is very well controlled > now.

– Alas for religious people who know no world except the one they live in, and who have nothing to learn from the people they speak to.                                 — A. DeMello S.J. http://members.mint.net/mdmpsyd

Response:

I’m lodging a complaint with anyone who will listen Ok…first it was bipolar disorder, then it was adhd, then it was bipolar disorder plus adhd, now it’s bipolar disorder plus adhd plus *possible* seizure disorder. Oh, this EEG I had (terrible experience, btw) had spikes on it but the neurologist says "gee, those are possibly epileptic and they are possibly ‘artifacts’" Artifacts being normal variants or something gone wrong during the test (improper placement of electrode, movement, whatever). So, all I’ve really got to say about it all is: !!WTF??!! Now, I could have told anyone who asked that I’ve been having some kind of seizure-like problems for years and years. I could have told anyone who asked that 1000mg Depakote/day made it mostly go away. I could have told anyone who asked that Dexedrine fixed the hyperactivity/attention problems yet aggravated mood/seizure problems. I could have told anyone who asked that Ritalin helped with the adhd, but aggravated seizure problems considerably. I could have told anyone who asked that 1000mg Depakote/day helped mood problems but not entirely, and did nothing for adhd problems. I could tell anyone who asks that a lesser dose of Depakote plus a low dose of Lamictal (now) is actually making the seizure problems worse (ironic isn’t it? Sounds dumb doesn’t it?). I could wonder to myself, since there’s really no point telling or asking anymore, what to think of Wellbutrin since it obviously helps with the mood problems but is it aggravating seizure problems? It certainly does little for attention problems (but I guess little is better than nothing). The problem with all of this is that the people doing the asking are spread across specialties that think they have nothing to do with one another and each doesn’t fully understand the other. Where does this leave me? Tired as all hell of seeing doctors, of trying to adjust medication, of wondering what the hell is *really* wrong, of wondering if it’s all just a figment of my imagination, wondering if I should just up and walk away from it all. But I can’t do that b/c I don’t want the @#%#$ headaches back (another thing Depakote cured). What to do? I just want to forget about all of it and live my life, trouble is when I try that it tends to take over my life without much warning. What is ‘it’ you ask? How the heck should I know? People with medical degrees pretend to know, but I don’t think they do. I describe/present the same things over and over and one doctor says it’s this, another doctor says it’s that, and still another says it’s something else. Arg. My psychiatrist, who got the EEG report and read it to me, suggested I go to a neurologist. After listening to what that report said, I thought it might be a good idea, but I’m tired. I don’t think I want to bother. I think I just want to chuck the Lamictal, go back to the old level of Depakote and forget about the rest. I mean, hey, if Depakote mostly fixed the seizure problem, then what’s the point trying to prove I have it or having a specialist tell me I have it then turn around and tell me to take Depakote anyway? Seems kind of dumb and needlessly expensive, doesn’t it? God only knows how much that EEG is going to cost, only to have had them tell me they don’t know what it means exactly. Sure I have some medical insurance, but there’re deductibles and co-pays. Sigh, rant over. On a more positive note, at least the asthma is very well controlled now.

Response:

> I’m lodging a complaint with anyone who will listen

Jenwolf, I wish you would print this out and take it to your psychiatrist. This is an eloquent description of how difficult it can be dealing with doctors. Unfortunately, most people end up feeling tongue tied when there is actually a chance to talk to the doctor about it. Writing it down and giving it to the doctor would really help get the message across. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Ok…first it was bipolar disorder, then it was adhd, then it was > bipolar disorder plus adhd, now it’s bipolar disorder plus adhd plus > *possible* seizure disorder. Oh, this EEG I had (terrible experience, > btw) had spikes on it but the neurologist says "gee, those are possibly > epileptic and they are possibly ‘artifacts’" Artifacts being normal > variants or something gone wrong during the test (improper placement of > electrode, movement, whatever). So, all I’ve really got to say about it > all is: > !!WTF??!! > Now, I could have told anyone who asked that I’ve been having some kind > of seizure-like problems for years and years. I could have told anyone > who asked that 1000mg Depakote/day made it mostly go away. I could have > told anyone who asked that Dexedrine fixed the hyperactivity/attention > problems yet aggravated mood/seizure problems. I could have told anyone > who asked that Ritalin helped with the adhd, but aggravated seizure > problems considerably. I could have told anyone who asked that 1000mg > Depakote/day helped mood problems but not entirely, and did nothing for > adhd problems. I could tell anyone who asks that a lesser dose of > Depakote plus a low dose of Lamictal (now) is actually making the > seizure problems worse (ironic isn’t it? Sounds dumb doesn’t it?). I > could wonder to myself, since there’s really no point telling or asking > anymore, what to think of Wellbutrin since it obviously helps with the > mood problems but is it aggravating seizure problems? It certainly does > little for attention problems (but I guess little is better than > nothing). > The problem with all of this is that the people doing the asking are > spread across specialties that think they have nothing to do with one > another and each doesn’t fully understand the other. Where does this > leave me? Tired as all hell of seeing doctors, of trying to adjust > medication, of wondering what the hell is *really* wrong, of wondering > if it’s all just a figment of my imagination, wondering if I should just > up and walk away from it all. But I can’t do that b/c I don’t want the > What to do? I just want to forget about all of it and live my life, > trouble is when I try that it tends to take over my life without much > warning. What is ‘it’ you ask? How the heck should I know? People with > medical degrees pretend to know, but I don’t think they do. I > describe/present the same things over and over and one doctor says it’s > this, another doctor says it’s that, and still another says it’s > something else. Arg. > My psychiatrist, who got the EEG report and read it to me, suggested I > go to a neurologist. After listening to what that report said, I thought > it might be a good idea, but I’m tired. I don’t think I want to bother. > I think I just want to chuck the Lamictal, go back to the old level of > Depakote and forget about the rest. I mean, hey, if Depakote mostly > fixed the seizure problem, then what’s the point trying to prove I have > it or having a specialist tell me I have it then turn around and tell me > to take Depakote anyway? Seems kind of dumb and needlessly expensive, > doesn’t it? God only knows how much that EEG is going to cost, only to > have had them tell me they don’t know what it means exactly. Sure I have > some medical insurance, but there’re deductibles and co-pays. > Sigh, rant over. > On a more positive note, at least the asthma is very well controlled > now.

Response:

Question:

>I live in NY, and the homeless panhandlers in downtown SF outnumber those >in Manhattan 2 to 1!  There was literally one on EVERY corner and in >between. Be aware.         That was my biggest disappointment about SF.

Bah. If there are going to be homeless people, I’m proud to live in a city that offers them something of a welcome (admittedly less of one with each passing day and law). A great many of them are fascinating and very nice people. miguel

Response:

There were a lot of homeless in SF a month ago, but a lot less than two years ago and even fewer than four years ago.  In certain areas, Union Square for one, you could hardly walk without stepping on them in 1990.  BCriswell

Response:

>for a day.  If your stopping over at S.F.O airport, grab a bus to the >nearest BART station, then ride all the way to the Powell Street Station.

Just to help a little more, that would be the 3X bus to Daly City BART. It’s $1 and they welcome luggage. It takes about 20 minutes to the BART station, then it’s another $1.50 or so downtown which also takes 20 minutes. Or you can wait until 1999 when there will apparently be a BART link straight to some new International Terminal I’ve never heard of. miguel

Response:

there’s lot’s to see in San Francisco. You can take a bus to the Daly City BART station or take a Bus to Down town SF from The Airport. It’s one of the SAMTRANS busses, I think. There are bus stops at each terminal Fisherman’s Wharf, Federal Reserve, Embarcadero Center, Golden Gate park, Cable Cars, Berkeley, Cliff house, Golden Gate Bridge…  I love SF

Response:

I live in NY, and the homeless panhandlers in downtown SF outnumber those in Manhattan 2 to 1!  There was literally one on EVERY corner and in between. Be aware.         That was my biggest disappointment about SF.

Response:

Tell me what you want to see in the City.  I know it well.  If you haven’t been there before you probably want to get dropped off at Powell and Market and hoof it.  S.F. is a terrible city to drive around or park in. Rather take the cable past Union Square, up and over the hill to Fisherman’s Wharf.  On your way back stop on California and take the cable up to Nob hill, then reverse and drop down into China town.  Skip the city tourist office.  Probably too much junk mail, unless your a tour package lover.  There’s a ton more to do than this, but this will keep you busy for a day.  If your stopping over at S.F.O airport, grab a bus to the nearest BART station, then ride all the way to the Powell Street Station. Alan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > We’re planning a trip to S.F.O. later this summer, who can give us info. on > sights to see?  Is the City tourist office on-line?

Response:

We’re planning a trip to S.F.O. later this summer, who can give us info. on sights to see?  Is the City tourist office on-line?

Response:

>We’re planning a trip to S.F.O. later this summer, who can give us info. on >sights to see?

As for what to see, that depends an awful lot on your interests and how much time you’ll be spending in the area. _My_ favorite places to visit tend to involve food, and there’s seemingly no end of possibilities here.  Something for just about every taste and every budget, and California restaurants are pleasantly smoke-free. >                Is the City tourist office on-line?

Try:         http://www.terminus.com/geni/USA/CA/San_Francisco/travel/ After you arrive, stop by the San Francisco Convention and Visitors Bureau’s Visitor Information Center at Hallidie Plaza–that’s on the west side of the Powell Street BART/MUNI station, and just down the escalators from the Powell Street cable car turntable. They have all sorts of information (and maybe even some valuable discount coupons).  Their quarterly tourist guide, _The San Francisco Book_, is free if you pick it up in person, or they’ll gladly mail a copy for a small fee.  They also have a lodging guide.  Details should be on the WWW (see above).  Their telephone number is +1 415 391 2000.  They also have recorded events information in five languages. Tip 1: there’s some wonderful information in the front of the San Francisco Pacific Bell SMART Yellow Pages(R) A-L volume– it’s well worth looking at once you arrive.  If your local library collects out-of-area telephone directories, see if they have this.  If not, you might bring a set back for them.  :-) Tip 2: some major airlines publish vacation or tourist guides for California.  Check with city ticket offices and/or travel agents. Tip 3: at San Francisco International Airport, stop by information booths (generally located near baggage claim areas), and/or Travelers Aid.  Car Rental desks will also have some very useful information, but: If you’re going to be in San Francisco proper, you’re best off *not* renting a car.  Many parts of The City are walkable (wear comfortable shoes!).  If it weren’t for our famous hills, probably all of it would be.  Street parking is hard to find, private lots are expensive, gasoline stations are few and far between, and automobiles (expecially rentals) attract thieves. Southern California is the driving capital of the U.S.–not here. Fortunately, San Francisco has excellent public transportation. The San Francisco Municipal Railway (a/k/a MUNI) operates motor coaches, trolley coaches, light rail vehicles, and cable cars. Adult bus and LRV cash fares are $1.  You can get a free transfer valid for at least 90 minutes for two additional rides in any direction.  Cable car cash fares at $2, and no transfers are issued or accepted.  There are discounts for children and seniors. One of the best city maps to have is MUNI’s; many bookstores and newspaper vendors sell copies for around $2.50.  This will show all the transit lines and tell you their approximate frequencies; the exact schedules are published separately.  Those are available free of charge on buses and from MUNI Metro (LRV) station agents. There are several ways to save money (and some inconvenience): 1) $8 will buy ten MUNI tokens, each usable as one adult cash    fare.  These don’t have expiration dates, and one package can    be divided between several people. 2) If you’re only going to be here a few days, and are primarily    interested in playing tourist, consider buying MUNI Passports.    These allow unlimited use of all MUNI vehicles (including    cable cars), and give you admission discounts at several    museums and attractions.  1 day=$6, 3 consecutive days=$10,    7 consecutive days=$15.  The downside: they’re a dead giveaway    that you’re not from around here. 3) If you’re going to be here for an extended visit, monthly    ($35) passes are available.  I don’t know if weekly passes    still exist.  The last information I have says they sold    for $9, covered a Monday-Sunday period, and were valid on    all MUNI vehicles except cable cars, where a $1 additional    fare was required. Note: prices subject to change July 1, 1995. San Francisco has two separate and independently operated subway systems: the MUNI Metro and BART.  Four stations in downtown San Francisco are common to both: Embarcadero, Montgomery, Powell, and Civic Center.  There are separate fare gates for each system, and the tracks are on different levels, so you can’t confuse them.  MUNI’s five lines travel to different parts of San Francisco.  The three BART lines that pass through San Francisco continue south to Daly City, and east to Alameda and Contra Costa counties.  Fares depend on the distance traveled.  "All About BART" brochures with fare and schedule information are available at all BART stations.  While there is no free transfer between the two systems, if you’re coming from BART, you can purchase a two part "transfer" for $1 (the same as one regular adult MUNI fare).  The "from BART" half, which you have to use almost immediately, acts as an adult cash fare (i.e. you can trade it for a ride and a two-use MUNI transfer).  The "to BART" half is good for a second adult cash fare in the opposite direction, and should be valid for about three days.  If you can take advantage of this, you have a "buy one, get one free" or 50% discount deal. More info on Bay Area public transportation:         http://server.berkeley.edu/Transit/ When should you consider renting a car?  If you plan on traveling north of The City (e.g. to the "wine country"), or if you’ll be staying outside of San Francisco. BTW, California is *big*.  The San Francisco Bay Area only covers nine of California’s 58 counties.  Everywhere else is flying distance.  Don’t plan on seeing "everything" in one trip.                                         -=EPS=- — "When in CyberSpace, be sure to visit" The Exploratorium               http://www.exploratorium.edu/ California Academy of Sciences  http://www.calacademy.org/ SF Museum of Modern Art         http://www.sfmoma.sf.ca.us:1995/

Response:

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Plutonium, your scrivenings here are not on topic for these newsgroups.  That > is not to say that you don’t have relatively free access to post to these > newsgroups, it is just that there are the other newsgroups where the > participants of the actual newsgroups would care.  Basically, there are stock > predictions better than yours, in fact, so much better as to make your > postings > about those relatively non-relevant personal interests to be not posting them > to groups whose contexts include contemporary engineering research, and > anybody > who is actually interested in the newsgroup subject content.. > Plutonium, also, like I said before, your theories are not one hundred > percent > correct. > So, go back to relevant newsgroups. > Ross > RF complaining about AP? Funny!

No, the funny bit is RF protesting that AP’s theories "are not one hundred percent correct"… — The Scarlet Manuka

Response:

Hi, Well, for example, there are more variables.  You’re talking about a largescale socioeconomic phenomenon. Basically, as long as the growth of production, real growth, surpasses population growth, then that is an easy way out of the Malthusian dilemna, which is about the quality of life.  Basically, the quality of life gets better, unless a large asteroid stomps the planet. Real growth is predicted by, among other things, investment in research and development. Perhaps more worthwhile would be determining which lawsuits are probable, or betting on the Rams. So, we need to encourage development in lift and development technolgies to build more settlements in outer space and deep under the ocean. Ross – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Plutonium, also, like I said before, your theories are not > one hundred percent correct. > Ross, leaving open the possibility of a non-zero value for the > percentage makes you sound horribly sarcastic you know; and to > compare the correctness ratio of AP’s theories, even negatively, > with "one hundred percent" seems positively cruel! That doesn’t > sound like you at all, or so I thought until now. (Remember – > sarcasm is the basest form of wit!) > Cheers > The new is in the old concealed, the old is in the new revealed. >    St Augustine.

– Ross A. Finlayson Finlayson Consulting

Response:

> > Tell me: does China as a country have more oil and uranium resources than > the USA? > I know Russia by itself has more oil and uranium than does the USA. > China has ocean front. Thus, the have sufficient uranium for millions of > years. > Karl Johanson

Can you be more specific with details as to how much oil and uranium reserves that China holds. I would guess that the Himalyan Mountains belong to China and that those mountains hold vast uranium reserves. Any geologist around?

Response:

I certainly agree that we need a united China, so lets help Taiwan complete a 5th column operation against China so that new democratic leadership can take charge? The leades of China are just a bunch of murders anyway, and they support slave labor, so they really have no more right to exist than Hitler did, right? Lets help Taiwan free China! Tom Tucker

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The USA made one huge horrendous mistake by not following major worldwide > trends. Trends that were for the better. The trend I speak of is the ending of > "Colonialism" and the mistake was Vietnam. > Now with this China spy plane incident the world is in another two trends. One > trend is the disappearing of the Cold War. And the other trend is the > reuniting of former divided nations. One could say the Cold War ended with the > dissolution of the USSR into many separate countries. And with the Cold War > ending, former divided nations such as the Koreas are wanting to get together > again. > So, in this recent spy plane incident the USA is immensely behind the times > and is backward in policy and is perhaps falling into another Vietnam type > mistake. > The world trend is for divided nations to reunite as per Koreas and now Taiwan > to China. > The USA policy towards Taiwan should be one of trying to facilitate a > reunification of Taiwan to mainland China not of keeping the two apart. > Yet that spy plane incident shows the world that the policy of the USA is > against and opposed towards a reunification of Taiwan to China. The USA made a > big mistake with Vietnam, and now it appears the USA will make another big > mistake in its relationship of China to Taiwan. Instead of creating more > friendship and trust and trade with mainland China, the Taiwan issue will only > lead the USA into a saber rattling war with China. Taiwan will be China’s > hatred-builder. > I have heard buzzwords for diplomacy policies such as "human rights > diplomacy". I think Madelaine Albright in the Clinton administration fostered > that type of diplomacy where she made decisions based on human rights. > I wonder if someone will use a policy of *Friendship Diplomacy* as their > administration guide policy of decision making. Who can deny that you increase > the friendship of the Koreas and the rest of the world by reuniting the two > Koreas and thus our policy towards Korea would by a reunification centerpiece. > Who can deny that you increase the friendship and liking of the USA if the USA > worked towards a reunification of Taiwan to China. > Thus, why is the USA kicking sand into the face of China and doing most things > to keep Taiwan separate from China. Could George Bush adopt a world > *Friendship Diplomacy*? > Could George Bush see that making friends with China and Taiwan means getting > the two closer and closer to reuniting rather than supplying Taiwan with aegis > warships and other arms to keep the two apart. > The world is moving away from Cold War incidents and moving towards > reunification of Cold War Foes, yet the USA seems not smart enough to see this > world trends and the USA is still behaving towards China as if it was back in > 1950.

Response:

Sorry if this is a repeat. A bit of trouble posting. > Tell me: does China as a country have more oil and uranium resources than > the USA? > I know Russia by itself has more oil and uranium than does the USA.

China has ocean front. Thus, the have sufficient uranium for millions of years. Karl Johanson

Response:

> Plutonium, also, like I said before, your theories are not > one hundred percent correct.

Ross, leaving open the possibility of a non-zero value for the percentage makes you sound horribly sarcastic you know; and to compare the correctness ratio of AP’s theories, even negatively, with "one hundred percent" seems positively cruel! That doesn’t sound like you at all, or so I thought until now. (Remember – sarcasm is the basest form of wit!) Cheers The new is in the old concealed, the old is in the new revealed.    St Augustine.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Plutonium, your scrivenings here are not on topic for these newsgroups.  That > is not to say that you don’t have relatively free access to post to these > newsgroups, it is just that there are the other newsgroups where the > participants of the actual newsgroups would care.  Basically, there are stock > predictions better than yours, in fact, so much better as to make your > postings > about those relatively non-relevant personal interests to be not posting them > to groups whose contexts include contemporary engineering research, and > anybody > who is actually interested in the newsgroup subject content.. > Plutonium, also, like I said before, your theories are not one hundred > percent > correct. > So, go back to relevant newsgroups. > Ross

RF complaining about AP? Funny!

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Plutonium, your scrivenings here are not on topic for these newsgroups.  That > is not to say that you don’t have relatively free access to post to these > newsgroups, it is just that there are the other newsgroups where the > participants of the actual newsgroups would care.  Basically, there are stock > predictions better than yours, in fact, so much better as to make your > postings > about those relatively non-relevant personal interests to be not posting them > to groups whose contexts include contemporary engineering research, and > anybody > who is actually interested in the newsgroup subject content.. > Plutonium, also, like I said before, your theories are not one hundred > percent > correct. > So, go back to relevant newsgroups. > Ross > RF complaining about AP? Funny!

I wasn’t complaining. Shut up, Virgil. Ross — Ross A. Finlayson Finlayson Consulting

Response:

let’s just go and blow the crap out of china and call it even fish — ——BEGIN SIGNATURE—— A.K.A "Dopefish" or "fish" for short on Usenet. Microsoft?  Is that some kind of toilet paper? "Rockin’ the town like a moldy crouton!"                  - Beck (Soul Suckin’ Jerk – Reject) "Help me, I broke apart my insides. Help me, I’ve got no soul to sell. Help me, the only thing that works for me, help me get away from myself."                  - Nine Inch Nails (Closer) —–BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK—– Version: 3.12 GO dpu s++:++ a—- C++++ U—>UL  P L+ E? W++ N+++ o+ K— w+>w+++++  O— M– V? PS+++ PE Y– PGP t 5–  X+ R tv b+ DI D+ G– e- h! r z ——END GEEK CODE BLOCK—— (www.geekcode.com) ——END SIGNATURE——

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Tell me something– how would the USA have felt if back in 1860 England > interfered with the North by taking sides with the South? Do people of > the USA really believe that Taiwan is different from China. How would > the USA feel if China traded only with the state of Texas and considered > the rest of the USA states as rogue states. The point I am driving home > is that Wars are caused mostly because of human overpopulation and that > all of these other things such as — spy plane captives, selling aegis > to Taiwan, archduke Ferdinand shot, etc, etc are merely minor steps on > the way to Correcting the Huge Human Overpopulation problem. > I think it is time now, especially with this spy plane incident of China in > April of 2001 and reconsider the entire political strategy of Taiwan versus > China. Taiwan was born in a time of the Cold War and fear of Communism. > That Cold War has changed, and even vanished in large degree. So is Taiwan > a relic of the Cold War and should not the USA change its tune and attitude > towards Taiwan. > Although Taiwan is a friend of the USA and Taiwan boasts a Democratic > government, is not the USA deluding itself and the rest of the world > deluding itself by thinking that Taiwan is not China and that Taiwan will > always be Chinese. And that the future of Taiwan is to reunite with China. > Thus, with this spy plane incident, it appears that the USA is still back > in cave-man era thinking as to the future of Taiwan. The Cold War has ended > in most places and the future is bright in those spots except for Taiwan. > Is the USA making Taiwan the black-hole-sink that will drag the USA into > conflicts? It appears so. > It appears to me that Taiwan diplomacy and USA policy towards is out of > synch with the general trends around the world as regards to the ending of > the Cold War. > Rather than the USA increasing and embellishing the military strength of > Taiwan, should not the USA be veering in the opposite direction of trying > to get mainland China to accept some sort of union with Taiwan much in the > same respect that England handed over Hong Kong to mainland China. > I think it awful and silly to have to go to war with China sometime in the > future because of the USA’s reluctance to see that Taiwan (even though it > is Democratic) begins to form a plan to reunite with mainland China. Is it > worth a major war for the USA because a island split off from China is > democratic in government (ephemereal idealism) yet truly are Chinese with a > differing opinion with mainland China. Is it worth the USA in losing say > 100 million lives in some war that was escalated over the fact that Taiwan > is stopped from reuniting with mainland China. How many Americans would > feel justified in fighting and losing their lives because the USA > steadfastly stood by a separate Taiwan rather than encourage Taiwan to > reunite or set a timetable to reunite with China. > This recent spy plane incident tells me that the USA policy towards Taiwan > and China is more out of tune with the times rather than the USA desire to > arm Taiwan and keep it separate from China. > Should not the USA be making diplomacy as to how to get Taiwan to reunite > with China rather than this bristling saber rattling over every incident. > In that regard, the USA really should be making apologies not only to China > but the entire rest of the world for being backwards and dreaming that the > Cold War is still here and is hot over Taiwan. > Is it just me, or do others have the feeling that the Republicans are war > hungry or are just bristling for world hotspot incidents and that instead > of de-escalating potential hotspots that the Republicans encourage them and > seem to gain pleasure when they arise. Clinton and Democrats tried to open > China for trade, and here 3 months into a Republican administration we may > have closed the door on mainland China and now worried about escalations of > war saber rattling. > Is the Bush policy to Taiwan one of keeping Taiwan forever separate from > mainland China. Is the Bush policy to the Koreas one of keeping those two > separate? From this spy plane incident it appears that the Bush policy is > one of "keeping the status quo". Not of trying to make things better for > the Koreans by reuniting, nor of trying to reunite Taiwan to China. > Instead of Bush going over to China to verbally attack the Chinese and to > sell Taiwan aegis ships. Would it not be better for Bush to go to China and > say– I am sorry and I apologize because I did not fully realize the World > wants to end the Cold War on Communism. And I am here to offer a timetable > plan to start to reunite Taiwan to China much in the same manner that > England gave up Hong Kong to China. > A USA apology to China was not really for the spy plane being over > international waters and that the Chinese pilot was a hot dog pilot. But > rather the apology was because the USA is 10 or 20 years behind the growing > trend that the Cold War was over with and that China has made huge strides > in becoming a nation trying to meet the demands of the West and yet with > all of that "trying to satisfy the West", the West in the USA is still > treating China as a horrible and ugly nation. > Just as the Chinese pilot was a hot-dog-pilot. The same can be said of the > Republican administration of foreign policy towards China in that we have > treated China with a Hot-Dog-Diplomacy. We do not trust them and we plan to > arm Taiwan to the hilt. > I think President Bush ought to overhaul the entire diplomacy and policy of > the USA as regards to China and Taiwan and make as CENTERPIECE of that > diplomacy, a plan for a future reunification of Taiwan to China. Forget > about that idealistic fact that Taiwan is a democratic government whereas > China is not. That piece of idealism is not worth future scraps and crisis > and perhaps leading into a war. > Tell me: does China as a country have more oil and uranium resources than > the USA? > I know Russia by itself has more oil and uranium than does the USA.

Response:

The USA made one huge horrendous mistake by not following major worldwide trends. Trends that were for the better. The trend I speak of is the ending of "Colonialism" and the mistake was Vietnam. Now with this China spy plane incident the world is in another two trends. One trend is the disappearing of the Cold War. And the other trend is the reuniting of former divided nations. One could say the Cold War ended with the dissolution of the USSR into many separate countries. And with the Cold War ending, former divided nations such as the Koreas are wanting to get together again. So, in this recent spy plane incident the USA is immensely behind the times and is backward in policy and is perhaps falling into another Vietnam type mistake. The world trend is for divided nations to reunite as per Koreas and now Taiwan to China. The USA policy towards Taiwan should be one of trying to facilitate a reunification of Taiwan to mainland China not of keeping the two apart. Yet that spy plane incident shows the world that the policy of the USA is against and opposed towards a reunification of Taiwan to China. The USA made a big mistake with Vietnam, and now it appears the USA will make another big mistake in its relationship of China to Taiwan. Instead of creating more friendship and trust and trade with mainland China, the Taiwan issue will only lead the USA into a saber rattling war with China. Taiwan will be China’s hatred-builder. I have heard buzzwords for diplomacy policies such as "human rights diplomacy". I think Madelaine Albright in the Clinton administration fostered that type of diplomacy where she made decisions based on human rights. I wonder if someone will use a policy of *Friendship Diplomacy* as their administration guide policy of decision making. Who can deny that you increase the friendship of the Koreas and the rest of the world by reuniting the two Koreas and thus our policy towards Korea would by a reunification centerpiece. Who can deny that you increase the friendship and liking of the USA if the USA worked towards a reunification of Taiwan to China. Thus, why is the USA kicking sand into the face of China and doing most things to keep Taiwan separate from China. Could George Bush adopt a world *Friendship Diplomacy*? Could George Bush see that making friends with China and Taiwan means getting the two closer and closer to reuniting rather than supplying Taiwan with aegis warships and other arms to keep the two apart. The world is moving away from Cold War incidents and moving towards reunification of Cold War Foes, yet the USA seems not smart enough to see this world trends and the USA is still behaving towards China as if it was back in 1950.

Response:

Plutonium, your scrivenings here are not on topic for these newsgroups.  That is not to say that you don’t have relatively free access to post to these newsgroups, it is just that there are the other newsgroups where the participants of the actual newsgroups would care.  Basically, there are stock predictions better than yours, in fact, so much better as to make your postings about those relatively non-relevant personal interests to be not posting them to groups whose contexts include contemporary engineering research, and anybody who is actually interested in the newsgroup subject content.. Plutonium, also, like I said before, your theories are not one hundred percent correct. So, go back to relevant newsgroups. Ross – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Tell me something– how would the USA have felt if back in 1860 England > interfered with the North by taking sides with the South? Do people of > the USA really believe that Taiwan is different from China. How would > the USA feel if China traded only with the state of Texas and considered > the rest of the USA states as rogue states. The point I am driving home > is that Wars are caused mostly because of human overpopulation and that > all of these other things such as — spy plane captives, selling aegis > to Taiwan, archduke Ferdinand shot, etc, etc are merely minor steps on > the way to Correcting the Huge Human Overpopulation problem. > I think it is time now, especially with this spy plane incident of China in > April of 2001 and reconsider the entire political strategy of Taiwan versus > China. Taiwan was born in a time of the Cold War and fear of Communism. > That Cold War has changed, and even vanished in large degree. So is Taiwan > a relic of the Cold War and should not the USA change its tune and attitude > towards Taiwan. > Although Taiwan is a friend of the USA and Taiwan boasts a Democratic > government, is not the USA deluding itself and the rest of the world > deluding itself by thinking that Taiwan is not China and that Taiwan will > always be Chinese. And that the future of Taiwan is to reunite with China. > Thus, with this spy plane incident, it appears that the USA is still back > in cave-man era thinking as to the future of Taiwan. The Cold War has ended > in most places and the future is bright in those spots except for Taiwan. > Is the USA making Taiwan the black-hole-sink that will drag the USA into > conflicts? It appears so. > It appears to me that Taiwan diplomacy and USA policy towards is out of > synch with the general trends around the world as regards to the ending of > the Cold War. > Rather than the USA increasing and embellishing the military strength of > Taiwan, should not the USA be veering in the opposite direction of trying > to get mainland China to accept some sort of union with Taiwan much in the > same respect that England handed over Hong Kong to mainland China. > I think it awful and silly to have to go to war with China sometime in the > future because of the USA’s reluctance to see that Taiwan (even though it > is Democratic) begins to form a plan to reunite with mainland China. Is it > worth a major war for the USA because a island split off from China is > democratic in government (ephemereal idealism) yet truly are Chinese with a > differing opinion with mainland China. Is it worth the USA in losing say > 100 million lives in some war that was escalated over the fact that Taiwan > is stopped from reuniting with mainland China. How many Americans would > feel justified in fighting and losing their lives because the USA > steadfastly stood by a separate Taiwan rather than encourage Taiwan to > reunite or set a timetable to reunite with China. > This recent spy plane incident tells me that the USA policy towards Taiwan > and China is more out of tune with the times rather than the USA desire to > arm Taiwan and keep it separate from China. > Should not the USA be making diplomacy as to how to get Taiwan to reunite > with China rather than this bristling saber rattling over every incident. > In that regard, the USA really should be making apologies not only to China > but the entire rest of the world for being backwards and dreaming that the > Cold War is still here and is hot over Taiwan. > Is it just me, or do others have the feeling that the Republicans are war > hungry or are just bristling for world hotspot incidents and that instead > of de-escalating potential hotspots that the Republicans encourage them and > seem to gain pleasure when they arise. Clinton and Democrats tried to open > China for trade, and here 3 months into a Republican administration we may > have closed the door on mainland China and now worried about escalations of > war saber rattling. > Is the Bush policy to Taiwan one of keeping Taiwan forever separate from > mainland China. Is the Bush policy to the Koreas one of keeping those two > separate? From this spy plane incident it appears that the Bush policy is > one of "keeping the status quo". Not of trying to make things better for > the Koreans by reuniting, nor of trying to reunite Taiwan to China. > Instead of Bush going over to China to verbally attack the Chinese and to > sell Taiwan aegis ships. Would it not be better for Bush to go to China and > say– I am sorry and I apologize because I did not fully realize the World > wants to end the Cold War on Communism. And I am here to offer a timetable > plan to start to reunite Taiwan to China much in the same manner that > England gave up Hong Kong to China. > A USA apology to China was not really for the spy plane being over > international waters and that the Chinese pilot was a hot dog pilot. But > rather the apology was because the USA is 10 or 20 years behind the growing > trend that the Cold War was over with and that China has made huge strides > in becoming a nation trying to meet the demands of the West and yet with > all of that "trying to satisfy the West", the West in the USA is still > treating China as a horrible and ugly nation. > Just as the Chinese pilot was a hot-dog-pilot. The same can be said of the > Republican administration of foreign policy towards China in that we have > treated China with a Hot-Dog-Diplomacy. We do not trust them and we plan to > arm Taiwan to the hilt. > I think President Bush ought to overhaul the entire diplomacy and policy of > the USA as regards to China and Taiwan and make as CENTERPIECE of that > diplomacy, a plan for a future reunification of Taiwan to China. Forget > about that idealistic fact that Taiwan is a democratic government whereas > China is not. That piece of idealism is not worth future scraps and crisis > and perhaps leading into a war. > Tell me: does China as a country have more oil and uranium resources than > the USA? > I know Russia by itself has more oil and uranium than does the USA.

– Ross A. Finlayson Finlayson Consulting

Response:

> Tell me something– how would the USA have felt if back in 1860 England > interfered with the North by taking sides with the South? Do people of > the USA really believe that Taiwan is different from China. How would > the USA feel if China traded only with the state of Texas and considered > the rest of the USA states as rogue states. The point I am driving home > is that Wars are caused mostly because of human overpopulation and that > all of these other things such as — spy plane captives, selling aegis > to Taiwan, archduke Ferdinand shot, etc, etc are merely minor steps on > the way to Correcting the Huge Human Overpopulation problem.

I think it is time now, especially with this spy plane incident of China in April of 2001 and reconsider the entire political strategy of Taiwan versus China. Taiwan was born in a time of the Cold War and fear of Communism. That Cold War has changed, and even vanished in large degree. So is Taiwan a relic of the Cold War and should not the USA change its tune and attitude towards Taiwan. Although Taiwan is a friend of the USA and Taiwan boasts a Democratic government, is not the USA deluding itself and the rest of the world deluding itself by thinking that Taiwan is not China and that Taiwan will always be Chinese. And that the future of Taiwan is to reunite with China. Thus, with this spy plane incident, it appears that the USA is still back in cave-man era thinking as to the future of Taiwan. The Cold War has ended in most places and the future is bright in those spots except for Taiwan. Is the USA making Taiwan the black-hole-sink that will drag the USA into conflicts? It appears so. It appears to me that Taiwan diplomacy and USA policy towards is out of synch with the general trends around the world as regards to the ending of the Cold War. Rather than the USA increasing and embellishing the military strength of Taiwan, should not the USA be veering in the opposite direction of trying to get mainland China to accept some sort of union with Taiwan much in the same respect that England handed over Hong Kong to mainland China. I think it awful and silly to have to go to war with China sometime in the future because of the USA’s reluctance to see that Taiwan (even though it is Democratic) begins to form a plan to reunite with mainland China. Is it worth a major war for the USA because a island split off from China is democratic in government (ephemereal idealism) yet truly are Chinese with a differing opinion with mainland China. Is it worth the USA in losing say 100 million lives in some war that was escalated over the fact that Taiwan is stopped from reuniting with mainland China. How many Americans would feel justified in fighting and losing their lives because the USA steadfastly stood by a separate Taiwan rather than encourage Taiwan to reunite or set a timetable to reunite with China. This recent spy plane incident tells me that the USA policy towards Taiwan and China is more out of tune with the times rather than the USA desire to arm Taiwan and keep it separate from China. Should not the USA be making diplomacy as to how to get Taiwan to reunite with China rather than this bristling saber rattling over every incident. In that regard, the USA really should be making apologies not only to China but the entire rest of the world for being backwards and dreaming that the Cold War is still here and is hot over Taiwan. Is it just me, or do others have the feeling that the Republicans are war hungry or are just bristling for world hotspot incidents and that instead of de-escalating potential hotspots that the Republicans encourage them and seem to gain pleasure when they arise. Clinton and Democrats tried to open China for trade, and here 3 months into a Republican administration we may have closed the door on mainland China and now worried about escalations of war saber rattling. Is the Bush policy to Taiwan one of keeping Taiwan forever separate from mainland China. Is the Bush policy to the Koreas one of keeping those two separate? From this spy plane incident it appears that the Bush policy is one of "keeping the status quo". Not of trying to make things better for the Koreans by reuniting, nor of trying to reunite Taiwan to China. Instead of Bush going over to China to verbally attack the Chinese and to sell Taiwan aegis ships. Would it not be better for Bush to go to China and say– I am sorry and I apologize because I did not fully realize the World wants to end the Cold War on Communism. And I am here to offer a timetable plan to start to reunite Taiwan to China much in the same manner that England gave up Hong Kong to China. A USA apology to China was not really for the spy plane being over international waters and that the Chinese pilot was a hot dog pilot. But rather the apology was because the USA is 10 or 20 years behind the growing trend that the Cold War was over with and that China has made huge strides in becoming a nation trying to meet the demands of the West and yet with all of that "trying to satisfy the West", the West in the USA is still treating China as a horrible and ugly nation. Just as the Chinese pilot was a hot-dog-pilot. The same can be said of the Republican administration of foreign policy towards China in that we have treated China with a Hot-Dog-Diplomacy. We do not trust them and we plan to arm Taiwan to the hilt. I think President Bush ought to overhaul the entire diplomacy and policy of the USA as regards to China and Taiwan and make as CENTERPIECE of that diplomacy, a plan for a future reunification of Taiwan to China. Forget about that idealistic fact that Taiwan is a democratic government whereas China is not. That piece of idealism is not worth future scraps and crisis and perhaps leading into a war. Tell me: does China as a country have more oil and uranium resources than the USA? I know Russia by itself has more oil and uranium than does the USA.

Response:

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I noticed that a lot of people are registering at SM.  This is what we did, >with mixed results.  Make sure you register at C&B or some other store also, >because >(1) Some people will not check to see where you are registered.  C&B will >come immediately to mind when they think of a bridal gift.  I know it’s >expensive and you don’t want your guests to waste money, but the alternative >is an unwanted gift. >(2) Some people who know you are registered at SM may not have an outlet >near them and they may not want to try and mail order. >(3) Your Mom or your fiance’s Mom just may not want to let on that you’re >crass enough to register at SM.  We suspect my fiance’s Mom of doing this. >Every time we talk to her on the phone I tell my husband "ask her if she >told anyone where we were registered, just ask her, go ahead", but so far he >had convieniently forgotten. >Good Luck and may you not end up with two crystal vases, two crystal bowls, >two silver ice buckets and a bunch of "display china" like we did. >  Ewww!  Were you at least able to return things, I hope?

Sadly, no.  And I’m not tellin’ here what’s going to happen to them . The worst thing was a little figurine that came all the way from England. Don’t get me wrong, we were so happy to see these relatives that we took them to dinner a total of three times before the wedding (even after opening the gift!).   >Personally, I’ve HEARD of SM (because of game shows, no less), and I’ve HEARD >of C+B (but have never seen one or been to one); here in the northwest, the >only places I’ve ever heard of people registering are The Bon and REI.  I >know REI opened a store in the DC area; I have NO idea how far the Bon >extends..take that back; I know there’s on in Utah; it must be pretty much >most of the West, at least; does anyone know if there’s any Bon stores >further east?  

I would love to have registered at REI, but I don’t think my husband would have gone for it. Valerie

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >I noticed that a lot of people are registering at SM.  This is what we did, >with mixed results.  Make sure you register at C&B or some other store also, >because >(1) Some people will not check to see where you are registered.  C&B will >come immediately to mind when they think of a bridal gift.  I know it’s >expensive and you don’t want your guests to waste money, but the alternative >is an unwanted gift. >(2) Some people who know you are registered at SM may not have an outlet >near them and they may not want to try and mail order. >(3) Your Mom or your fiance’s Mom just may not want to let on that you’re >crass enough to register at SM.  We suspect my fiance’s Mom of doing this. >Every time we talk to her on the phone I tell my husband "ask her if she >told anyone where we were registered, just ask her, go ahead", but so far he >had convieniently forgotten. >Good Luck and may you not end up with two crystal vases, two crystal bowls, >two silver ice buckets and a bunch of "display china" like we did.

  Ewww!  Were you at least able to return things, I hope? Personally, I’ve HEARD of SM (because of game shows, no less), and I’ve HEARD of C+B (but have never seen one or been to one); here in the northwest, the only places I’ve ever heard of people registering are The Bon and REI.  I know REI opened a store in the DC area; I have NO idea how far the Bon extends..take that back; I know there’s on in Utah; it must be pretty much most of the West, at least; does anyone know if there’s any Bon stores further east?     I hadn’t even thought about how my relatives on the east coast (not a lot of them, but they are the ones with the most money to spend) were going to know what we wanted.  Maybe I should ask them what store(s) out there they would think appropriate.  I know everyone who lives around here (most of our friends and relatives) will think of the Bon first, though; other people who have lots of relatives out here in the west might want to see about registering there, too, even if you don’t live near one.   -Sandy

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>I would love to have registered at REI, but I don’t think my husband would >have gone for it.

Gee, if my husband had known that one could register at REI, I doubt he would have brooked registering anywhere else.    ;-) —                                                 —  Michal Impressive amounts of material can be accreted in this manner.

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Yes, Crate and Barrel is in the northeast.  Frankly, I always thought they started there. They have a store in Boston, at Copley Place, and in Cambridge, at Harvard Square.  They also have a discount outlet in Woburn, Massachusetts. There may be more stores in New England, but I don’t know offhand. Julian C. Lander

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I keep seeing Crate and Barrel and Service Merchandise mentioned in posts. I live in Seattle, and we don’t have either of those stores in this area.  I had heard of C&B due to catalog sales, but on this newsgroup was where I first heard of SM.  I am mentioning this so that people will recognise that some widely spread out chain stores are not *everywhere*. If you do plan to register at one of them, I do reccomend checking if that store is in all the areas you have guests living in.  Of course, here in Seattle it’s so provincial, that we are still getting around in horse-drawn carriages…  :) On the other hand, I noticed that most of the out of town guests waited until they got here to shop anyway.  After we had registered at a store in my husband’s family’s area.  The people who sent gifts from out of town sent either items they selected themselves, or sent checks (what a pity ).  Only a few out of towner’s purchased at the out of town registry. We did check out Penney’s because they are in most locations, but I was very unimpressed with how they handle registry.  Why bother… We came close to registering at Pier 1 imports – also in most locations.   (For our casual dinnerware and table linens) They were wonderful.  But then we found dinnerware we prefered at another store.  I thought registering was alot of work, so I don’t advocate registering at lots of stores, but I do think registering at a good department store likely to be shopped at by "the relatives" while you are visiting is a good thing to do.  And I’ll also note that of the 2 stores (both with multiple locations) we registered at locally, most of the guests shopped at the one that is in all the major malls.  Sadly, it had the less interesting merchandise.   Oh well … Kaye Trimbath                   *   Data I/O Corporation            *   voice: (206) 867-6230           *

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I noticed that a lot of people are registering at SM.  This is what we did, >with mixed results.  Make sure you register at C&B or some other store also, >because >(1) Some people will not check to see where you are registered.  C&B will >come immediately to mind when they think of a bridal gift.  I know it’s >expensive and you don’t want your guests to waste money, but the alternative >is an unwanted gift. >[other stuff deleted] >Interesting.  I’m from the northeast, and had never heard of Crate & >Barrel before a friend of my fiance’s mentioned that he was registering >there.  Apparently there are stores around the Chicago area, where >he’s from, but when we tried to find a location either in the northeast >or southern Michigan (where we’re living now) we had no luck.  Are >these stores nationwide?

We had to worry about Washington D.C., San Francisco and Chicago.  There are C&B in these locations.   I’m not sure about elsewhere. Valerie

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asks: > Interesting.  I’m from the northeast, and had never heard of Crate & > Barrel before a friend of my fiance’s mentioned that he was registering > there.  Apparently there are stores around the Chicago area, where > he’s from, but when we tried to find a location either in the northeast > or southern Michigan (where we’re living now) we had no luck.  Are > these stores nationwide?

I think the only Crate & Barrel in Michigan is in the Twelve Oaks Mall, in Troy (Detroit area). But they must also have a store in the Boston area; my brother and his wife got me some C&B stuff last Christmas. Last time I looked at a C&B catalogue (at my bro’s house — I don’t get one (yet)), they had a list of all their locations in it. It wasn’t a very long list, though. Maybe 20 stores nationwide. Don’t know if that helps or not.         Clare

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>I noticed that a lot of people are registering at SM.  This is what we did, >with mixed results.  Make sure you register at C&B or some other store also, >because >(1) Some people will not check to see where you are registered.  C&B will >come immediately to mind when they think of a bridal gift.  I know it’s >expensive and you don’t want your guests to waste money, but the alternative >is an unwanted gift.

[other stuff deleted] Interesting.  I’m from the northeast, and had never heard of Crate & Barrel before a friend of my fiance’s mentioned that he was registering there.  Apparently there are stores around the Chicago area, where he’s from, but when we tried to find a location either in the northeast or southern Michigan (where we’re living now) we had no luck.  Are these stores nationwide? We ended up registering ourselves at Service Merchandise too, as the databases across the country are immediately updated once someone makes a purchase from the registry.  One thing to watch out for, though:  when we got our list of choices from them in the mail after we registered, we noticed that many of the items we wanted were either unavailable or discontinued.  (It varies from store to store what they have available, though if they’re about to discontinue something from their catalog, you might have a hard time finding it.) They’ll list substitutes you may want to add to your registry instead.  If we hadn’t noticed this, almost 1/3 of the items we put on our list wouldn’t have shown up on the printout when people went to see what we’d selected.  Almost inevitably, the discontinued items were the least expensive ones, but the prices there are usually still cheaper than elsewhere. Sarah Lynn Lewis (on my fiance’s account) — Pete Nesbeitt               | "And what is good, Phaedrus, Computer Science Department |  And what is not good — Michigan State University   |  Need we ask anyone to tell us these things?"

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I noticed that a lot of people are registering at SM.  This is what we did, with mixed results.  Make sure you register at C&B or some other store also, because (1) Some people will not check to see where you are registered.  C&B will come immediately to mind when they think of a bridal gift.  I know it’s expensive and you don’t want your guests to waste money, but the alternative is an unwanted gift. (2) Some people who know you are registered at SM may not have an outlet near them and they may not want to try and mail order. (3) Your Mom or your fiance’s Mom just may not want to let on that you’re crass enough to register at SM.  We suspect my fiance’s Mom of doing this. Every time we talk to her on the phone I tell my husband "ask her if she told anyone where we were registered, just ask her, go ahead", but so far he had convieniently forgotten. Good Luck and may you not end up with two crystal vases, two crystal bowls, two silver ice buckets and a bunch of "display china" like we did. Valerie

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Hey Gang — >Sorry I didn’t pay more attention to this when the thread went around >before, but I’m wondering what stores are good places to register. I >recall that when this was discussed before, it was mentioned that some >stores, even though they may be "nationwide" chains DO NOT maintain >nationwide registries (the wish list may be available nationwide, but >it’s not necessarily kept updated nationwide when items are purchased). >We’ve got friends and family on both coasts as well as the midwest, >so a nationwide chain would definitely be nice. We just registered at >Crate & Barrel (which DOES keep the purchase record updated nationwide). >But the truth is that I wasn’t really happy with what we had to choose >from (e.g., we didn’t register for plates, etc. — it may have been >the particular Crate & Barrel that was maybe smaller than others). >Please post or send email — I’ll post a summary of whatever mail I >receive. >Thanks! >    Clare

Hi Clare, Crate and Barrel is a good choice in terms of registry, since it is one of the places people think of first and they’re around everywhere.  (I wouldn’t necessarily shop there for myself, however – a little overpriced and faddish).  Besides that the only thing I can think of is to register as many places as possible!  If you go home on a visit, register at a bunch of places.  Register where you live at a bunch of places. We’re in the Chicago area and have relatives on both coasts.  We really liked the selection and prices at Service Merchandise and they have mail order so we registered there.  Then we registered at Crate and Barrel just to be safe.  Most of our friends went to SM.  His younger family members stopped by Crate and Barrel and found out we were registered there and picked presents up there.  His older family members sent us a lot of glass bowls and pitchers and silver things.  My family did the SM thing. The moral of the story is that you can’t always rely on people to check where you are registered, but many times if they shop at a particular store they’ll check to see if you’re on the computer.  Therefore, registering at a few major stores in each area is a good idea. Valerie

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 Just a quick note on the registry posts. Don’t be scared off by small local shops. We registered at a family-owned china/crystal/jewlery store here in Cleveland, and they are very willing to help out-of-towners over the phone. In fact, we’ve already gotten gifts from relatives who ordered everything by phone.  The prices at this particular store were great and the service has been even better, so don’t think you *have* to use only the big-name national stores. —

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>I recommend Service Merchandise.  They update their computers >nationwide and have a good selection of everything.  The only things

I am registering with Service Merchandise also.  Dan and I registered all the expensive, shiny stuff with a mail order china discount store in New Jersey called Nat Shwartz. I REALLY recomend this place.  It is a single store that does mail order, they have a 1-800 number and everyone I spoke with was very polite.  If you are registering, or have a registry question, you’ll talk with Marilyn, she knows all the registry stuff.  When people call to order for you they can talk with anyone there and, since it’s all computerized and in the same building, it is updated very quickly.  They have my china for $70 5pc place setting, including postage and insurance, while Macy’s had it for $105!  If you are hoping for china, crystal, and silver, call them (try 1-800-555-1212 ask for the number) So far, Service Merchandise has been ok, not great, not spectacular, but ok.  I was a little put off by the automated phonbe system but was relieved to know that if you hit 4 for "order from a registry" it asks you to hold and you talk to a person.  Knowing some of my family and they way they speak to answering machines I wouldn’t get any gifts (not that I’m expecting any, that would be pretentious)!  SM has most of the stuff we want at reasonable prices and the big bonus, a real-time-updated NATIONAL database for registries.  With family spread all up the eastern coast, that is the biggest plus.   Joan — Joan C. Maxfield                * "Je Crois que je vais cracher une

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Hey Gang — Sorry I didn’t pay more attention to this when the thread went around before, but I’m wondering what stores are good places to register. I recall that when this was discussed before, it was mentioned that some stores, even though they may be "nationwide" chains DO NOT maintain nationwide registries (the wish list may be available nationwide, but it’s not necessarily kept updated nationwide when items are purchased). We’ve got friends and family on both coasts as well as the midwest, so a nationwide chain would definitely be nice. We just registered at Crate & Barrel (which DOES keep the purchase record updated nationwide). But the truth is that I wasn’t really happy with what we had to choose from (e.g., we didn’t register for plates, etc. — it may have been the particular Crate & Barrel that was maybe smaller than others). Please post or send email — I’ll post a summary of whatever mail I receive. Thanks!         Clare

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Clare Bates Congdon writes: >…I’m wondering what stores are good places to register. I >recall that when this was discussed before, it was mentioned that some >stores, even though they may be "nationwide" chains DO NOT maintain >nationwide registries (the wish list may be available nationwide, but >it’s not necessarily kept updated nationwide when items are purchased).

I’m just now starting the registry process.  I first went to Penney’s, since they’re nationwide.  Ugh!  They were not helpful at all, the worksheet was confusing, and we ended up just walking out. I figure that if I’m going to bring them hundreds of dollars in business, I should get a bit more service. I recommend Service Merchandise.  They update their computers nationwide and have a good selection of everything.  The only things we’re not registering for there are linins, fancy china, and crystal. The best part is, they’re inexpensive.  A carafe I liked at Crate and Barrel was half the price at Service.  I can’t ask friends to spend more than I’d be willing to! Another registry thought…If you register for brand name china or crystal at a nice store, you may be able to return what you get and use the money to buy twice as much at an outlet store.  Of course I realize that this might be considered rather tacky. Robin

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Question:

On July 24, the Eastern Caribbean countries of:    Antigua & Barbuda, Dominica, Grenada, St. Kitts and Nevis,    St. Lucia, and St. Vincent and the Grenadines all voted with China, Denmark, Japan, Korea and Norway to block creation of a whale sanctuary in the southern pacific. It seems a bit of a strange thing, especially for countries like Dominica which make considerable money flogging the "eco tourism" name tag, and also out of whale watching excursions by respectable operators.   But then again, Japan knows it can count on these countries as a quick supply of valuable votes, especially when it supplies them with development investment money in exchange for their votes.  When the islands can play both cards, they’re laughing all the way to the bank. The same vote defeat was fairly well publicised back in 2000, but this years vote was less noticable.  Dominica’s environment minister resigned over the issue last year [as I recall]. Anyway, if you consider yourself an eco-tourist, or if this issue bothers you, perhaps you should consider Tobago as a suitable caribbean eco destination, in protest.  Tobago has had great success in recent years in their efforts to protect sea turtles.  Reward their efforts with your visit and interest. Remember: in this area, it’s your $$ that speak for you. For more info, search groups.google.com on: — Ken Tough

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While I really wanted to keep Tobago quiet, I must say this is remarkable!!  How shortsighted these other islands are.  We are certainly glad we are heading back to tobago this year!! Melanie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->On July 24, the Eastern Caribbean countries of: >   Antigua & Barbuda, Dominica, Grenada, St. Kitts and Nevis, >   St. Lucia, and St. Vincent and the Grenadines >all voted with China, Denmark, Japan, Korea and Norway to >block creation of a whale sanctuary in the southern pacific. >It seems a bit of a strange thing, especially for countries like >Dominica which make considerable money flogging the "eco tourism" >name tag, and also out of whale watching excursions by respectable >operators.   But then again, Japan knows it can count on these >countries as a quick supply of valuable votes, especially when >it supplies them with development investment money in exchange >for their votes.  When the islands can play both cards, they’re >laughing all the way to the bank. >The same vote defeat was fairly well publicised back in 2000, but >this years vote was less noticable.  Dominica’s environment >minister resigned over the issue last year [as I recall]. >Anyway, if you consider yourself an eco-tourist, or if this >issue bothers you, perhaps you should consider Tobago as a >suitable caribbean eco destination, in protest.  Tobago has had >great success in recent years in their efforts to protect sea >turtles.  Reward their efforts with your visit and interest. >Remember: in this area, it’s your $$ that speak for you. >For more info, search groups.google.com on:

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> On July 24, the Eastern Caribbean countries of: >    Antigua & Barbuda, Dominica, Grenada, St. Kitts and Nevis, >    St. Lucia, and St. Vincent and the Grenadines > all voted with China, Denmark, Japan, Korea and Norway to > block creation of a whale sanctuary in the southern pacific. > — > Ken Tough

One does wonder why these marxists and socialist countries did vote that one down.  I guess whale blubber still pops a lot of popcorn in Asia. LOL

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> On July 24, the Eastern Caribbean countries of: >    Antigua & Barbuda, Dominica, Grenada, St. Kitts and Nevis, >    St. Lucia, and St. Vincent and the Grenadines > all voted with China, Denmark, Japan, Korea and Norway to > block creation of a whale sanctuary in the southern pacific. > — > Ken Tough > One does wonder why these marxists and socialist countries did vote that one > down.  I guess whale blubber still pops a lot of popcorn in Asia. LOL

IIRC, Carriacou (Grenada) does one whale a year.

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>> > On July 24, the Eastern Caribbean countries of: > >    Antigua & Barbuda, Dominica, Grenada, St. Kitts and Nevis, > >    St. Lucia, and St. Vincent and the Grenadines > > all voted with China, Denmark, Japan, Korea and Norway to > > block creation of a whale sanctuary in the southern pacific. > One does wonder why these marxists and socialist countries did vote that one > down.  I guess whale blubber still pops a lot of popcorn in Asia. LOL >IIRC, Carriacou (Grenada) does one whale a year.

The point really isn’t what each island does in terms of whaling, rather that they each have just as big an impact as any other country when it comes to establishing world policy.   They have decided that whales should not be protected in the South Pacific, primarily because that keeps Japan happy, and Japan gives them money when it’s happy. Even those who don’t consider whales needy of protection can see the hypocrisy of countries that promote "eco tourism" actually just selling off those values.   If Japan comes to collect the resident Dominica sperm whale pod for its "research", I would hope someone gets a few good pics for the tourists. — Ken Tough

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>> On July 24, the Eastern Caribbean countries of: >    Antigua & Barbuda, Dominica, Grenada, St. Kitts and Nevis, >    St. Lucia, and St. Vincent and the Grenadines > all voted with China, Denmark, Japan, Korea and Norway to > block creation of a whale sanctuary in the southern pacific. >One does wonder why these marxists and socialist countries did vote that one >down.  I guess whale blubber still pops a lot of popcorn in Asia. LOL

I’m not sure I’d call all those islands, Japan, and Korea as socialist.  I don’t think there’s a political left-right factor in the decision.   Many small socialist island brothers in the pacific are a bit pissed off about it. — Ken Tough

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> I’m not sure I’d call all those islands, Japan, and Korea > as socialist.  I don’t think there’s a political left-right > factor in the decision.   Many small socialist island > brothers in the pacific are a bit pissed off about it. > — > Ken Tough

Someone always gets their governmental nose out of joint when they don’t get their way.  But, I see very little motivation for Caribbean Islanders to be jumping on the band wagon.  Whale watching just doesn’t bring in enough tourism dollars to worry about.  The only money spenders are land based tourists using facilities and hiring guides, etc.  The rest is window dressing.  Even cruise ships are disaster for the islands.  Other than a port fee, the only money spent is on a few tour rides, trinket sales, and junk food.  When I stay in Dominica for two weeks in a luxury hotel and hire guides, eat in all the restaurants 3 times a day, I am MUCH more valuable than a cruiser or ferry stop-over.  Not all parts of eco-tourism is necessary to make a go of it.  Dominica has the falls, rain forest, and such. Offshore isn’t that big a deal to them, I would suspect.

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>Remember: in this area, it’s your $$ that speak for you.

What   –   in your view   –   is the legitimate case in favor of opposition to the proposed whale sanctuary?   Your post makes it sound like there is none.  Opponents are not only ill-advised but money hungry,  anti-public interest,  pigs.   All good people must favor this idea and evil ones oppose it,  I guess.   Is this true?   I’d like to hear the other side, or at least a glimmer of same.  After all,  are eco-ideals and political realities always the same? T.

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>What   –   in your view   –   is the legitimate case in favor of opposition to >the proposed whale sanctuary?   >Your post makes it sound like there is none.  Opponents are not only >ill-advised but money hungry,  anti-public interest,  pigs.   All good people >must favor this idea and evil ones oppose it,  I guess.   >Is this true?   I’d like to hear the other side, or at least a glimmer of same. > After all,  are eco-ideals and political realities always the same?

I suppose legitimate opposition would be one based on the principle that exploitation of the animal resource should be allowed.  Most consider that the eastern caribbean vote was not really about that principle, but rather the way they will be treated by another country if they throw their hat into the ring.   I believe that protection of the rarer south pacific whales fits in with general ‘ecological’ ideals, but then again, I suppose except for their peculiar whale-hunting zeal the Norwegians are far more ecologically- minded than many countries. The argument that they should assert their power to say that people should be allowed to exploit what they want might have some merit, and would have more if they were actually whaling nations. — Ken Tough

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> What   –   in your view   –   is the legitimate case in favor of opposition to > the proposed whale sanctuary? > Your post makes it sound like there is none.  Opponents are not only > ill-advised but money hungry,  anti-public interest,  pigs.   All good people > must favor this idea and evil ones oppose it,  I guess. > T.

I think there could be lots of reasons not to join the herd, but each country has to decide for itself.  Dominica, for example, is not aligned with China and has done a lot of business with Tawain.  It is their choice.

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>I suppose legitimate opposition would be one based on the >principle that exploitation of the animal resource should >be allowed

You may be right but not knowing the specifics of the politics involved I would have expected the point to be less black and white. For instance  -   and I am just speculating without knowing the details  -   the Eastern Caribbean nations may find they own ecological interests to be superior to Pacific whaling protection.  In other words,  they have their agenda and don’t give a damn about whales and will further whales only if not at the cost of their own interests. Maybe they’ve cut a deal to give up whales in favor of their own interests,  in return for which they will receive Japanese support.  Stuff like this is fairly common in politics and it would be naive to think it is always a corrupt trade-off. My point is simply this:   harsh words are  spoken about "sell out". That’s a very strong term to use,  especially  where only superficial information is cited.   Of course,  maybe it is as simple as you make it out.  Maybe its just a case of  noble ecology vs. ignoble economics.    But it is usually a little more involved when the issue is not merely high minded ideals,  as with whale preservation,  but the politics of nations.   When they are both in the stew it  requires consideration compromise to achieve anything!!   T.  

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Question:

> The American Enterprise Institute’s Veronique de Rugy has calculated that > George W. Bush has boosted total inflation-adjusted discretionary spending > in his first term by 35.1 percent. > To put that in context, chew on this: LBJ–the Texas legend who created > the > Great Society and, for all intents and purposes, the Vietnam War–only > boosted discretionary spending 33.4 percent. What’s more, the gap between > Bush and LBJ will only grow.

Why is it that Lefties love LBJ and say that he cared about the poor? Why is it that Lefties hate Bush and say that he doesn’t care about the poor? Bus has spent far more on Social Programs for the poor… See ya, John

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> Why is it that Lefties love LBJ and say that he cared about the poor? > Why is it that Lefties hate Bush and say that he doesn’t care about the > poor? > Bus has spent far more on Social Programs for the poor… > See ya, > John

excuse me – me???? Lefties Love LBJ? We are rewriting history these days aren’t we? "Hey Hey LBJ How many kids did you kill today?" http://members.tripod.com/~JeanneAnn/sixties.html That’s politics for ya!!!

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The American Enterprise Institute’s Veronique de Rugy has calculated that > George W. Bush has boosted total inflation-adjusted discretionary spending > in his first term by 35.1 percent. > To put that in context, chew on this: LBJ–the Texas legend who created > the > Great Society and, for all intents and purposes, the Vietnam War–only > boosted discretionary spending 33.4 percent. What’s more, the gap between > Bush and LBJ will only grow. >Why is it that Lefties love LBJ and say that he cared about the poor? >Why is it that Lefties hate Bush and say that he doesn’t care about the >poor? >Bus has spent far more on Social Programs for the poor… >See ya, >John

Who said we all loved LBJ.  I was protesting America’s actions in Vietnam at the time.  I don’t think I’d call that loving LBJ. Although, I do think his Great Society was a better offering than anything Bush and his people have put on the plate. Ken Wilson Proud Owner of Lord Valve, PMG, John Wheaton, Claude Lucas,  Freep the Xenophobe, Chuck, pseudobacker, and the rest of the  Union of Rightwing Idiots Needing Explanations (URINE)  and, at his own request, Karl Rovershank (aka Lars from Mars) Supporting the Troops at http://www.resisters.ca http://www.criticalhistory.com/

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The American Enterprise Institute’s Veronique de Rugy has calculated that > George W. Bush has boosted total inflation-adjusted discretionary spending > in his first term by 35.1 percent. > To put that in context, chew on this: LBJ–the Texas legend who created > the > Great Society and, for all intents and purposes, the Vietnam War–only > boosted discretionary spending 33.4 percent. What’s more, the gap between > Bush and LBJ will only grow. >Why is it that Lefties love LBJ and say that he cared about the poor? >Why is it that Lefties hate Bush and say that he doesn’t care about the >poor? >Bus has spent far more on Social Programs for the poor…

Horse puckey.  He hasn’t even funded the misbegotten "No Child Left Behind" initiative," the "Social Programs" centerpiece of his first campaign — it’s essentially an unfunded mandate.  Maybe you’re referring to "Social Programs" for political cronies and corporate welfare for the industries that funded his campaign. Then there’s the most costly of his "Social Programs," permanent tax breaks for the already-prosperous.  You’re correct, John, Dumber’nyuh is a hideously profligate spender on "Social Programs" — for those who don’t need them!  Meanwhile, poverty rates continue to rise and the middle class continues to "downsize."        Posted via TITANnews – Uncensored Newsgroups Access              >>>> at http://www.TitanNews.com <<<< -=Every Newsgroup – Anonymous, UNCENSORED, BROADBAND Downloads=-

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>>Bush has spent far more on Social Programs for the poor… > Horse puckey.

This source will drive’n crazy, but try to refute the facts; "As far as entitlement spending on poverty programs is concerned, it isn’t even close. In 1996, President Clinton signed a budget that directed 12.2 percent of spending be directed toward the poor. In 2004, Bush’s budget kicked 2 percent more than Clinton to poverty programs, an astronomical $329 billion. In fact, President Bush is spending more on poverty entitlement programs and education than any president in history. What say you, Jesse and Howard? For a country that is often accused by left-wing loons of not caring about the poor, we are certainly putting up a good front. In 2006, almost $368 billion dollars will go for Medicaid, food stamps, family support assistance, supplemental security income, child nutrition programs, earned income tax credits, welfare payments, child-care payments, foster care and adoption assistance, and child health insurance payments to the states. The truth is that the working men and women of this country are providing the tightest safety net in history for the poor. And our private charitable donations rank first in the world as well. So the next time the poverty propagandists start with the "America ignores the poor" bull, simply walk away. These people are blatantly dishonest and could not care less that America does, indeed, help the less fortunate. The race and class baiters will always ignore the fact that some people simply cannot support themselves no matter what society does. The New Testament states it clearly: "the poor, they will always be with us." But America provides more opportunity for more people than anywhere else on the planet." http://www.creators.com/opinion_show.cfm?columnsName=bor

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Where did you get "love LBJ" from that post?  They blame him for Vietnam… Your myopic partisan prejudice is showing again… as usual.

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He may be spending more, but the bucks are ending up in his crony’s pockets.  Poverty increased under Bush first term. The other difference is that Clinton actually had the money to pay for his programs… Bush just borrows from China.  You think it’s sound fiscal policy I guess.  No surprise there, Kool-aid drinker.

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> Where did you get "love LBJ" from that post?  They blame him for > Vietnam… > Your myopic partisan prejudice is showing again… as usual.

You are one of the many Lefty Lemmings that has raved about LBJ’s Great Society program. Remember that was the second coming for you folks. That aside, my previous post compares Clinton & Bush’s spending on the poor. Again Bush is also the greatest spender in history where programs for the poor is concerned, both in raw dollars, and in percent of geovernment spending. I’m sure you guys will still bitch, why let facts influence your rants. See ya, John

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> He may be spending more, but the bucks are ending up in his crony’s > pockets.

Bull shit. The money goes to indigent, but why consider facts! >Poverty increased under Bush first term.

That also neglects to include the Dot.Com bubble that Clinton rode, and the Dot.Com Burst that left Bush to inherit a collapsing economy, but why consider facts! That also neglects to include the millions of jobs that were lost after 9/11, remember the airlines alone laid-off close to a million, but why consider facts! > No surprise there, Kool-aid drinker.

Ah now that is a snappy retort to posting factual information. The "kool aid drinkers" are the Lefty Lemmings you MORON. Where did the term come from? Do you even know? It was Lefties Lemmings from San Francisco that were Jim Jones followers, but again, why let facts influence your posts! See ya, John

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Excuse me, your lying asshole-ness.  Please quote any post where I "raved" about LBJ. In fact at the time I joined millions of other patriotic Americans to protest the Vietnam war.  We were correct on Vietnam being a colossal waste of lives and money, and history will show we are correct about Iraq too.

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"John Wheaton" asks the key question, and skewers the leftist whiners again: > Why is it that Lefties hate Bush and say that he doesn’t care about the > poor? Bush has spent far more on Social Programs for the poor…>

As of their fifth year in office, compared to Clinton, Bush has spent DOUBLE the amount of money Clinton did. Better yet, the so-called "poverty rate" in FAt Boy Billy Clinton’s fith year in office was 13.7%, In Bush’s it is 12.7%…stick it up your commie keesters, moonbats, Bush is beating you at your own "spend it" game.

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Yo, bubble brain.  By the end of Clinton’s term (that would be the 8th year, in case you can’t do the math) povery was down to 11%. At any rate, with his usual skill, "Lying John" has tried to reframe the discussion away from discretionary non-military spending, to spending on poverty.  The original post wasn’t about that.  It was about total spending… ie pork.

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>> He may be spending more, but the bucks are ending up in his crony’s > pockets. >Bull shit. The money goes to indigent, but why consider facts! >Poverty increased under Bush first term. >That also neglects to include the Dot.Com bubble that Clinton rode, and the >Dot.Com Burst that left Bush to inherit a collapsing economy, but why >consider facts!

That’s not Clinton’s fault. That’s brain dead investors putting their money in lots of vapour ware and virtual product. >That also neglects to include the millions of jobs that were lost after >9/11, remember the airlines alone laid-off close to a million, but why >consider facts! > No surprise there, Kool-aid drinker. >Ah now that is a snappy retort to posting factual information. The "kool aid >drinkers" are the Lefty Lemmings you MORON. Where did the term come from? Do >you even know? It was Lefties Lemmings from San Francisco that were Jim >Jones followers, but again, why let facts influence your posts!

They might if you had any facts to bring to the table.  Fucking apologist. Ken Wilson Proud Owner of Lord Valve, PMG, John Wheaton, Claude Lucas,  Freep the Xenophobe, Chuck, pseudobacker, and the rest of the  Union of Rightwing Idiots Needing Explanations (URINE)  and, at his own request, Karl Rovershank (aka Lars from Mars) Supporting the Troops at http://www.resisters.ca http://www.criticalhistory.com/

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> At any rate, with his usual skill, "Lying John"

FUCK YOU. You regularly LIE in this ng and you have NEVER been seen me do it. Not once, not ever. The Lefty Lemming would be crowing for months if that ever happned. You need to worry about it, since IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN. has tried to reframe > the discussion away from discretionary non-military spending,

Bull Shit on that too! I have posted a number of times that I have a problem with this free spending administration, but again, why let facts influence your posts! to > spending on poverty.

I put that out there because the Lefty Lemming are continualy railing about how Bush hates the poor, and he is going to add new programs on the backs of the poor, and that is like most Lefty rants, it is dishonest, and untrue. The original post wasn’t about that.  It was > about total spending… ie pork.

And again, I have frequently posted again the amount of spending that is going on. Once again, you have been dishonest, but at least you are consistant! See ya, John

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courageously avow: >"John Wheaton" asks the key question, and skewers the leftist whiners again: > Why is it that Lefties hate Bush and say that he doesn’t care about the > poor? Bush has spent far more on Social Programs for the poor…> >As of their fifth year in office, compared to Clinton, Bush has spent DOUBLE >the amount of money Clinton did. Better yet, the so-called "poverty rate" in >FAt Boy Billy Clinton’s fith year in office was 13.7%, In Bush’s it is >12.7%…stick it up your commie keesters, moonbats, Bush is beating you at >your own "spend it" game.

You have a link to these numbers somewhere where they can be verified? Ken Wilson Proud Owner of Lord Valve, PMG, John Wheaton, Claude Lucas,  Freep the Xenophobe, Chuck, pseudobacker, and the rest of the  Union of Rightwing Idiots Needing Explanations (URINE)  and, at his own request, Karl Rovershank (aka Lars from Mars) Supporting the Troops at http://www.resisters.ca http://www.criticalhistory.com/

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comparing percentages doesn’t mean much if you don’t also talke about the actual number. What’s 50% of 100,000? What’s 5% of 1,000,000,000? Which is more

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OK liar, I noticed you were unable to post anything where I said I "loved" LBJ, as per your lying assertion.  So you get a big fat 0 for that rebuttal.  Liar.  And this particular thread was about total discretionary spending, not poverty programs.  I’m not talking about what you posted elswhere. Bush cares about poor folks?  And pigs have wings.  Check the poverty statistics in Texas over the course of the Bush tenure as governer. And the status of public education in Texas after his "policies" were applied.

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Actually percentages are a more fair comparison, since we are dealing with 35 years of inflation and population increase, as well as an increase in the size of the economy.

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>As of their fifth year in office, compared to Clinton, Bush has spent DOUBLE >the amount of money Clinton did. Better yet, the so-called "poverty rate" in >FAt Boy Billy Clinton’s fith year in office was 13.7%, In Bush’s it is >12.7%…stick it up your commie keesters, moonbats, Bush is beating you at >your own "spend it" game.

The funny thing is, he hates it when "liberals" spend money, but when Bush spends more, it’s cool and he brags about it??? Suck66, a man who stands by his principles…

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The right-wing American Enterprise Institute takes a look at presidential spending, both discretionary and total, and determines determines that Reagan was the greatest thing since sliced bread. Par for the course for that organization. But in an unexplored corner of their numbers we find that — drum roll please — Bush is an LBJ-caliber spendthrift. http://www.aei.org/imgLib/20040609_Table1_350.jpg http://www.aei.org/imgLib/20040609_Table2.gif Thing is, that report is a few months ago and included incomplete data and guesses for Bush’s 2004 budget. Well, turns out that once the final numbers came in, Bush amazingly clocked in above LBJ. Reason’s Nick Gillespie got the updated numbers, and it looks like the 30.2 percent that AEI projected for Bush’s first term was, well, optimistic. (Reason is a libertarian magazine). The Bush apologists like to point to the War on Terror to justify Bush’s lack of budget control. But the graph above helpfully breaks out the non-defense discretionary spending, and it’s ugly. That’s a 25.3 percent increase over Clinton’s last budget. And that’s not even including the hundreds of billions of dollars pissed away in Iraq. His second term, with the hurricane reconstructions, doesn’t promise to fare much better. Congressional Republicans aren’t about to surrender their pork for the nation’s greater good. And Bush will continue to do nothing about the runaway spending, as he’s done for the last four years and counting Those figures come by way of the American Enterprise Institute’s Veronique de Rugy, who has calculated that George W. Bush has boosted total inflation-adjusted discretionary spending in his first term by 35.1 percent. To put that in context, chew on this: LBJ–the Texas legend who created the Great Society and, for all intents and purposes, the Vietnam War–only boosted discretionary spending 33.4 percent. What’s more, the gap between Bush and LBJ will only grow. De Rugy notes that the final outlays for fiscal year 2005 (the last budget signed in Bush’s first term) aren’t in yet. As a result, she has to use mid-session review numbers, which are invariably smaller than the final amounts. And, she says, the number for FY2005 "does not take under consideration the numerous supplemental passed this year, and the new spending triggered by the Katrina disaster." It’s a wonder that any fiscal conservatives still stick by Bush.

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His numbers are right… but he takes the Clinton numbers from the first year of Clinton’s second term, rather than from the end of the term.  It’s a typically misleading righty talking point that he cribbed from somewhere.  He’s a parrot.

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> comparing percentages doesn’t mean much if you don’t also talke about > the actual number. What’s 50% of 100,000? What’s 5% of 1,000,000,000? > Which is more

As Lincoln said," When you are considered a fool, you are wiserer to keep quiet, than speak up and remove all doubt." Read the post again. Bush has spent more in raw dollars, AND HE SPENDS A HIGHER PERCENTAGE OF government spending as well. Clinton spent 12%, Bush spent 2% MORE THAN CLINTON, so he spent 14% on Poverty, and Welfare Programs. Bye, John

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> OK liar, I noticed you were unable to post anything where I said I > "loved" LBJ, as per your lying assertion.  So you get a big fat 0 for > that rebuttal.  Liar.

Once again, your ignorance is appalling. YOU are one of many that had trumpeted LBJ’s Great Society, so in that capacity, WHICH IS THE ONE that I referenced. I was VERY ACCURATE. You FUCKING MORON. Lying is what YOU do when you intentionally post something you KNOW to be UNTRUE. As usual what I posted was TRUE and ACCURATE. Check previous posts from YOU, and your Liberal Lemming Friends.  And this particular thread was about total > discretionary spending, not poverty programs.

Once again, you are being DISHONEST. I not only acknowledged that Bush is the biggest spender of ALL Time, I also have posted that NUMEROUS TIMES, and I have also POSTED NUMEROUS times that I do NOT LIKE his Spending, but why would you ever be truthful or accurate, especially when you are mentioning me. Unfortunate for you, I REMEMBER What I post, and I remember what YOU post, and EVERYONE that reads this ng remembers too . I’m not talking about > what you posted elswhere.

You don’t have to since I left no doubt that I think that he spends TOO FUCKING MUCH, and I made that clear in THIS THREAD you MORON. > Bush cares about poor folks?

He has spent MORE in raw dollars that Clinton, and more in percentage of government expendatures. > And pigs have wings

I posted the facts you MORON, but you don’t acknowledge that fact stuff. It might influence your rants and you wouldn’t be able to post the MORONIC things that you do. Bye, John

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> His numbers are right…

BINGO you MORON. It’s easy since I am ALWAYS honest, and I stick to the FACTS. > He’s a parrot.

Yea, horrible thought. I repeat the FACTS you MORON, instead of making things up as I go along like YOU do. Time for you Lefty Lemmings to break out the Kool-Aid. Bye, John

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Conveniently you apparently didn’t read my full post.  Making you a liar once again. His numbers were right, but he cut them off BEFORE the end of Clinton’s 2nd term. Here is the full deal: Historical Poverty Tables (4.00 / 2) Percent of families below poverty level 2004 11.0 2003 10.8 2002 10.4 2001 9.9 2000 9.6 1999 10.3 1998 11.2 1997 11.6 1996 12.2 1995 12.3 1994 13.1 1993 13.6 1992 13.3 1991 12.8 1990 12.0 Notice how after reaching a new low in 2000 the percentages go up again after Bush takes office. http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/histpov/hstpov2.html See ya, (wouldn’t wanna be ya)

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Question:

Eric: This dog needs to see a veterinarian immediately.  This condition could be nothing, but it could also be an early sign of something quite serious, such as a tumor in or behind the eye.  Without a medical examination, you might be missing something that urgently needs attention! Good luck! Don Miller – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > My dog, who is pretty much a mutt, Cockapoo we think, but she is > really cute and all. Anyway, she has this thing, that she has had > once before, where one of her eyes seemed to be larger than the other, > I don’t know if it is that, or she just has the lid open wider, > anyway, she has gotten it again, does anyone know what this is? Can I > use eye drops on her? Clear Eyes? THanks > *  Eric Daniel Rosenberg                      * > *  "If you are one in a million there are     * > * 2,500 people just like you in China" -Me   *

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: My dog, who is pretty much a mutt, Cockapoo we think, but she is : really cute and all. Anyway, she has this thing, that she has had : once before, where one of her eyes seemed to be larger than the other, : I don’t know if it is that, or she just has the lid open wider, : anyway, she has gotten it again, does anyone know what this is? Can I : use eye drops on her? Clear Eyes? THanks Eye drops are unlikey to help and may be harmful.  Have a vet check her, an a veterinary opthamoligist if necessary. When I found my cat Reka Mao as an adolescent stray, she too had different sized eyes. Several vets didn’t know what to make of it and told me it was no big deal. When she was 13 she developed a spot in one eye which the vet thought might be a tumor, so I took her to a vet. opthamoligist. He said that the spot was due to her eyes deteriorating from. In her case it’s untreatable but painless, and her vision is slowy vanishing. The different sized eyes are from a head injury she had as a kitten. The smaller eye stopped growing and all sight in that eye was destroyed.  She’s been totally blind in one eye for 13 years and we never knew. Please, have a vet check your dog’s eyes. She may have what Reka Mao has, but it could be any one of many other things. There are many kinds of eye disorders and most get worse without treatment.

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Question:

>We haven’t had any problem with Delta awards. Last night I called and got the two tickets I wanted >on DCA-FRA-IAD flights in May 1998. The only thing I hated was to part with 100000 miles. >Max

I’ve budgetted 200k miles to this trip. Best I’ve been able to figure out with the old-plan new-plan choices for 2 tickets si 100k for C, 150k for BC or 180k (or is that 200k?) for FC. Double that for getting around the blackout dates. I’d rather use 150k for two BC tickets and work with the restrictions, then double up to 200k for two C tickets and fly when I want… Oh, well, such is life.

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>yes, but you’re talking inter-continental. The previous poster only wanted >to fly from Mass to somewhere in the US.

Valid points, thanks. But there *still* are some restrictions for FF free tickets (only so many per flight). Just don’t expect to walk up and grab an empty seat, without doubling-up. >I flew BOS-CVG-CLE with no notice in 1995 (for the baseball American >League Championship Series). I burned miles. I didn’t get the exact choice >of flights I wanted but I did arrive in plenty of time, so I can’t >complain too much.

I guess that’s what it all comes down to. If you’re willing to bend, and don’t expect the world, you’ll probably get what you want 99.9% of the time. Steve B.

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We haven’t had any problem with Delta awards. Last night I called and got the two tickets I wanted on DCA-FRA-IAD flights in May 1998. The only thing I hated was to part with 100000 miles. Max – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> > I haven’t had too many problems with Delta award trips.  The >> > exceptions are busy travel times (thanksgining, xmas, spring break), >> > first class, and popular destinations.  (Hawaii in winter. etc) >Uh oh, I was planning on using my 40,000 miles to fly >first class from Massachusetts to some destination >within continental North America.  How far in >advance do you think I should plan for this? >I’ve found that it’s not the advance period, it’s the travel dates. >I’m attempting to use FF milage to go from DTW to Frankfurt (via CVG), >but I can only fly on Tue/Wed/Thu, or else I have to double-up the >milage. >Sort of puts a crimp on the travel plans… >Steve B.

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>> > I haven’t had too many problems with Delta award trips.  The > > exceptions are busy travel times (thanksgining, xmas, spring break), > > first class, and popular destinations.  (Hawaii in winter. etc) >Uh oh, I was planning on using my 40,000 miles to fly >first class from Massachusetts to some destination >within continental North America.  How far in >advance do you think I should plan for this?

I’ve found that it’s not the advance period, it’s the travel dates. I’m attempting to use FF milage to go from DTW to Frankfurt (via CVG), but I can only fly on Tue/Wed/Thu, or else I have to double-up the milage. Sort of puts a crimp on the travel plans… Steve B.

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 >>> > I haven’t had too many problems with Delta award trips.  The  >>> > exceptions are busy travel times (thanksgining, xmas, spring break),  >>> > first class, and popular destinations.  (Hawaii in winter. etc)  >> Uh oh, I was planning on using my 40,000 miles to fly  >> first class from Massachusetts to some destination  >> within continental North America.  How far in  >> advance do you think I should plan for this?  SB> I’ve found that it’s not the advance period, it’s the travel dates.  SB> I’m attempting to use FF milage to go from DTW to Frankfurt (via CVG),  SB> but I can only fly on Tue/Wed/Thu, or else I have to double-up the  SB> milage.  SB> Sort of puts a crimp on the travel plans… yes, but you’re talking inter-continental. The previous poster only wanted to fly from Mass to somewhere in the US. I flew BOS-CVG-CLE with no notice in 1995 (for the baseball American League Championship Series). I burned miles. I didn’t get the exact choice of flights I wanted but I did arrive in plenty of time, so I can’t complain too much. –Helen

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> > Delta, along with most other airlines, only allocates a fixed number > of seats for award travel.  IMHO you should have planned your spring > break award travel months ago. > I haven’t had too many problems with Delta award trips.  The > exceptions are busy travel times (thanksgining, xmas, spring break), > first class, and popular destinations.  (Hawaii in winter. etc)

Uh oh, I was planning on using my 40,000 miles to fly first class from Massachusetts to some destination within continental North America.  How far in advance do you think I should plan for this? Thank you. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Better call them now and be flexible with dates and times. > >Thinking abt taking a trip this spring using my skymiles. Has anyone > >exper. any problems using theirs? > Lessee, last year I booked a DL Skymiles award trip for late April in > early January.  I had to bump one of my dates around eventually, but it > was only by one day, and that turned out to be fine.  This wasn’t just any > old award, either; I used 60,000 to get a cont US to Asia round-trip > (PIT-NRT.)  Each way was 3 segments for me, and the problem was only on > one.  It’s not the one you think; on my original return, they couldn’t get > me a seat on the ATL-PIT flight that evening!  Getting a spot on the > transpacific legs was easy; neither one was entirely full. > — >        Greg Pacek         |    when I think I hear people say >    Pittsburgh, PA, USA    |    things.  More I cannot say."

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 YD> Related question: when booking skymiles award travel does it have to  YD> be on the Delta flights operated by Delta ? In other words can  YD> skymiles award travel consist of Delta flights operated by other  YD> airlines under a codeshare agreement. If the flight carries a "DL" designation (as the flights to Brussels on SABENA and Zurich on SwissAir do), then yes, you can use your Delta SkyMiles awards. However, there may be less availability on non-Delta operated flights simply because DL does not control the majority of the seats on the plane. If they only buy, say, 30 seats on the SABENA flight to Brussels you’d probably have less of a chance of getting one than if you flew the DL operated flight to Brussels via Kennedy.  YD> We live in Boston, we have many Transatlantic flights from Boston  YD> which have Delta code but are operated by Swiss,Sabena. If we have to  YD> fly Delta operated by Delta then we are required to connect at JFK. And we *all* hate Kennedy! I was planning on flying DL BOS-JFK-MAN in July but now SABENA has come along to be my saviour so I will fly BOS-BRU-BHX instead. Thank god, no Kennedy. –Helen

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> I have had 3 DL Skymilles transatlantic tickets to Moscow-never had a > problem with booking, but I guess Moscow isn’t most people’s first > choice when it comes time to think of award travel  :) > Maryanne.

I guess I should go looking for that Russian Bride Michael

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appear as if it was written: > YD> We live in Boston, we have many Transatlantic flights from Boston > YD> which have Delta code but are operated by Swiss,Sabena. If we have to > YD> fly Delta operated by Delta then we are required to connect at JFK. >And we *all* hate Kennedy!

Well, I don’t! It all depends on the airline: connecting through JFK on UA is rather pleasant, as is connecting UA/BA at JFK.  AA’s terminal can be tiresome with three separate concourses, but it’s not horrible. For the leader in "horrible", I offer MIA on any international/domestic transfer… >–Helen

Malc.

Response:

Hi all, Related question: when booking skymiles award travel does it have to be on the Delta flights operated by Delta ? In other words can skymiles award travel consist of Delta flights operated by other airlines under a codeshare agreement. We live in Boston, we have many Transatlantic flights from Boston which have Delta code but are operated by Swiss,Sabena. If we have to fly Delta operated by Delta then we are required to connect at JFK. Sameer Apte Sameer Dot Apte At Heroix Dot Com

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                   Greg asks:                    ["Does DL fly non-stop to                    Moscow?..."] They sure do. DL Fight #30 leaves JFK at 6:05 PM and arrives the next morning at 1:10AM Moscow time. It operates a Boeing 767-300 aircraft on that route. They have discontinued their Frankfurt- Moscow services late last year. (boo DL). Maryanne.

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> I have had 3 DL Skymilles transatlantic tickets to Moscow-never had a > problem with booking, but I guess Moscow isn’t most people’s first > choice when it comes time to think of award travel  :)

Does DL fly non-stop to Moscow?  (I’m thinking not; I’m sure you’ll correct me if I’m wrong.  Even if they did, it would likely be only from ATL or CVG.)  The trouble with awards isn’t necessarily your final destination.  Every segment is considered separately.  So, if your trip takes 3 segments each way (not unlikely with an int’l trip), you can lose one of your preferred dates because a domestic leg is too full.  This is what happened to me:  ATL-PIT had no award seating at the time I needed on the day I wanted.  (I was returning from NRT; only one time worked. —        Greg Pacek         |    when I think I hear people say    Pittsburgh, PA, USA    |    things.  More I cannot say."

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Thinking abt taking a trip this spring using my skymiles. Has anyone exper. any problems using theirs?

Dolores & Dave

Response:

Delta, along with most other airlines, only allocates a fixed number of seats for award travel.  IMHO you should have planned your spring break award travel months ago. I haven’t had too many problems with Delta award trips.  The exceptions are busy travel times (thanksgining, xmas, spring break), first class, and popular destinations.  (Hawaii in winter. etc) Better call them now and be flexible with dates and times. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Thinking abt taking a trip this spring using my skymiles. Has anyone >exper. any problems using theirs?

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Delta, along with most other airlines, only allocates a fixed number > of seats for award travel.  IMHO you should have planned your spring > break award travel months ago. > I haven’t had too many problems with Delta award trips.  The > exceptions are busy travel times (thanksgining, xmas, spring break), > first class, and popular destinations.  (Hawaii in winter. etc) > Better call them now and be flexible with dates and times. >Thinking abt taking a trip this spring using my skymiles. Has anyone >exper. any problems using theirs?

Lessee, last year I booked a DL Skymiles award trip for late April in early January.  I had to bump one of my dates around eventually, but it was only by one day, and that turned out to be fine.  This wasn’t just any old award, either; I used 60,000 to get a cont US to Asia round-trip (PIT-NRT.)  Each way was 3 segments for me, and the problem was only on one.  It’s not the one you think; on my original return, they couldn’t get me a seat on the ATL-PIT flight that evening!  Getting a spot on the transpacific legs was easy; neither one was entirely full. —        Greg Pacek         |    when I think I hear people say    Pittsburgh, PA, USA    |    things.  More I cannot say."

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I have had 3 DL Skymilles transatlantic tickets to Moscow-never had a problem with booking, but I guess Moscow isn’t most people’s first choice when it comes time to think of award travel  :) Maryanne.                    

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I’d have to agree with you.  Delta is going down fast.  They’ve really pissed me off for the last time.  Now they’re refusing to do advance ticketing at the airport (Palm Springs) during flights.  Well, they have several flights all day, so what does that mean.  What it means is they’re rude to you.  I got in line anyway and when they told me they couldn’t ticket me, I told that I was not leaving their line until my transaction was completed. Unfortunately, I have a $263.00 voucher which I must use within a year and I have a free ticket.  When those are gone, It’s sianora Delta. I’ve already started flying American out of Palm Springs because it doesn’t involve a 3 legged trip like Delta. —

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   The way I calculated the math was based on someone who flys the    short-haul routes (which I fall under). An example is LA to Phoenix    or LA to San Francisco, (both of which are under 500 miles) and are    using some form of upgrade (like a TZ, which you get 2 of at 40,000    miles and every 20,000 thereafter) to get to first-class.    In the current program as a Medallion-level flyer you will get    1000 base miles and 1000 bonus miles (for first class) for 2000    total program miles each way (4000 miles for the round trip).    In the SkyMiles program the same Medallion-level flyer will get    500 base miles and 125 bonus miles (a 25% bonus for any segment    flown) for a total of 625 miles each way (1250 miles for the    round trip).    That equates to a 68.75% reduction ( I rounded up for the article)    in earned miles for flying the same flights/segments. Then you also    lose 50% (500 miles) every time you stay in a partner hotel or rent    a partner car.    Then to add insult to injury, in the current program, Medallion-    level flyers can get a free domestic coach ticket for 20,000 miles,    and a free first class domestic ticket for 25,000 miles. In the    new program a coach ticket is 25,000 miles and a first class ticket    is 40,000 miles. So now on top of earning fewer miles, those miles    are also worth less in the new program.    This is in contrast to the infrequent flyer who now can get a free    coach ticket for the same 25,000 miles, but in the current program,    a free coach ticket costs 30,000 miles. That person will earn fewer    miles in the new program too, but instead of the new miles being worth    less, they are worth more.    Great new program huh?    David Park Yeah… I can agree.  I think that they got fed up with the negative comparisons of their base FF program.  I saw a number of letters that were pro-Delta Medallion FF program to get a reply "we only look at the programs accessable to most of the flyers." What’s more — they basically degraded their program to _match_ their major competitors! If they simply kept theie Medallion schedule of benefits for future miles as well as "old miles" then they would have deflected some of the criticism from their best flyers. John                               "Have Laptop, Will Travel" Standard disclaimers apply

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Dan, I agree with you on the decline of service on Delta.  I have found it slipping over the past few years.  I am also a FC, MM, and PM and i really don’t pay much attention to the actual mileage programs, so I usually don’t get that upset about any changes.  However, others who I have talked to spoken with take FF miles as a birth right. I would like to see Delta give you mileage, points, whatever, by the amount you pay for the ticket.  That would reward the "best" flyers.  I would also do away with other programs with reward with mileage such as hotels, telephone companies, credit cards, etc.  I have a few examples where individuals who hardly ever fly have more miles than I do.   I don’t understand why the FF programs are so confusing, just give points on the amount of money you spend, like any other business.  How about it Delta, why not give it a try?

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> Newsgroups: rec.travel.air > Path:

ni1.ni.net!news.service.uci.edu!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!gatech!newsfeed. pitt edu!uunet!in1.uu.net!ncrgw2.ncr.com!ncrhub2!ncr-sd!lcpd2!tdbunews!jg6 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Nntp-Posting-Host: pubsrv01.elsegundoca.attgis.com > Organization: AT&T Global Information Solutions > Lines: 8 > In Tuesday’s USA today a Mr. Park stated that "Delta’s very-frequent > flyers will earn up to 70% fewer program miles in the new SkyMiles > program for flying the same segments they currently do." > Can somebody please explain the math to me? > John Graas                       "Have Laptop, Will Travel"

Hi John, The way I calculated the math was based on someone who flys the short-haul routes (which I fall under). An example is LA to Phoenix or LA to San Francisco, (both of which are under 500 miles) and are using some form of upgrade (like a TZ, which you get 2 of at 40,000 miles and every 20,000 thereafter) to get to first-class. In the current program as a Medallion-level flyer you will get 1000 base miles and 1000 bonus miles (for first class) for 2000 total program miles each way (4000 miles for the round trip). In the SkyMiles program the same Medallion-level flyer will get 500 base miles and 125 bonus miles (a 25% bonus for any segment flown) for a total of 625 miles each way (1250 miles for the round trip). That equates to a 68.75% reduction ( I rounded up for the article) in earned miles for flying the same flights/segments. Then you also lose 50% (500 miles) every time you stay in a partner hotel or rent a partner car. Then to add insult to injury, in the current program, Medallion- level flyers can get a free domestic coach ticket for 20,000 miles, and a free first class domestic ticket for 25,000 miles. In the new program a coach ticket is 25,000 miles and a first class ticket is 40,000 miles. So now on top of earning fewer miles, those miles are also worth less in the new program. This is in contrast to the infrequent flyer who now can get a free coach ticket for the same 25,000 miles, but in the current program, a free coach ticket costs 30,000 miles. That person will earn fewer miles in the new program too, but instead of the new miles being worth less, they are worth more. Great new program huh? David Park

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I’m not sure how he calculated and there are several variations of mileage calculations.  However, I’ll  give you a one calculation.  Let’s assume you are  basic Medillion on the present program and will be the same on the new program and are taking a trip with 4 segments each of 500 miles or less.  You are also upgrading to first class using free awards such as the TZ award Delta presently sends out or the new segment upgrades soon to be provided. The mileage calculates:                                           Existing Program               New Program Base Miles                                4000                                  2000 Mileage Bonus                             –                                      500 First Class Bonus                      4000                                    -       Total                                      8000                                 2500 Mileage Reduction     68.75% ! Th point of the article is Delta is taking the most away from their best customers.  The better customer . . . the more you suffer. I’m a loyal customer but I’m about ready to give up on Delta and I’m flying more AA, but mostly because of a decline in Delta services.   Skymiles is just another example of a great airline, Delta, on the way to becoming the Eastern of tomorrow.  For example I’ve travel +40K on Delta this year mostly in first class and I’ve yet to get a hot meal.  American usually gives me a choice of hot meals. I once considered Delta the best in the industry.  Today they’re no better than middle of the pack and going downhill.   Hope this answers your question.   Dan        FC, MM, PM

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In Tuesday’s USA today a Mr. Park stated that "Delta’s very-frequent flyers will earn up to 70% fewer program miles in the new SkyMiles program for flying the same segments they currently do." Can somebody please explain the math to me? John Graas                       "Have Laptop, Will Travel"

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